CO885-(18-19) — Page 769

PUBLIC RECORD OFFICE

Reference :-

C.O.885

19 PUBLIC RECORD OFFICE, LONDON

ALLY WITHOUT PERMISSION OF THE BE REPRODUCED PHOTOGRAPHIC- COPYRIGHT PHOTOGRAPH-NOT TO

150

24 July 1908).

CROWN AGENTS' ENQUIRY COMMITTEE:

Sir BRADFORD LESLIE, K.C.I.E.

the railway on a higher standard than that in the contract 1 do not think that is quite so, because we have aimed at making the railway of the highest stan- darl. So anxious are the Board that there shall be nothing at all wanting, that we have been doing more than has been done on the standard line, because on the standard line there were only 1,200 cube yards of ballast to the, mile, and we are putting 1,800 cube yards. There is no question about efficiency, because we have aimed at the very highest type.

8523. Then you find fault again with the engineer for not allowing you sufficient width of land through the forest to protect you against danger from fire — Yes. because the standard line being 300 feet, we thought we were very moderate in asking for 200 feet through waste land.

3524. (Mr. Bailey.) Would that land be the property of the company?—We should do nothing with it except clear it. We only want it for the safety of the rail- way and for seeing round the curves some of which are very sharp. If we cannot clear the jungle we cannot soo round the curves. The engineer limited our width to 50 feet from the centre line, which is not enough, and we could not see any reason in it, as it is all waste lan. Like many other things it appeared to us to bẹ unreasonable.

3525. So far all your protests have been of no avail I take it. With regard to surface formation what have you to say-We have made surface formation, and we trust to this arbitration. because surface for- mation is the best formation in the world as long as you drain it.

3526. (Mr. Harris.) Have you made up your mind for arbitration already?- We shall be driven to it.

3527. (Chairman.) Then with regard to stone drains, I understand this to be the first occasion on which you get your way? You say, "The Government engineer ruled that stone drains were inadmissible, and that in overy instance culverts must be built. This was so unreasonable that on the representation of his local assistant we understand he will permit stone drains to be used in a few instances"-Yes, in certain in- stances.

3528. Then you complain that "the local represen- tative of the Crown Agents claimed that the design of every special work should be submitted to him to send to England for the approval of the consulting engi neer to the Crown Agents and that no work should be started until the design was returned approved." Do you say that that was unnecessary ~Quite unneces sary altogether, because the local representative of the Grown Agents is a member of the Institution and should be able to settle all those points with our con- struction men.

3529. (Mr. Gibson.) Was not that one of the objects in semling him out?! should have thought so, but he professed to be unable to settle the smallest point. 3530. (('hairman.) What sort of points, calverts and things of that kind?—Yes, and types of stations, and this very matter of our stone drains.

3531. Was it really proposed that you should send home a proposed type of a stone dram, to be approved by the Crown Agents' Office]—Ñ», you cannot make a drawing of a stone drain, but other things—culverts And stations. But the matter wettled itself, and we

did not do so. I may state that we have always given the local representative drawings of the works which he has asked for, but not to send home for sanction because our contract, being to make the railway of a certain, standard of efficiency, we felt if we made it of the highest standard of efficiency nothing more could be required. Therefore, we went on our way. It was no good sending these things home and objection being takin to them.

3532. (Mr. Gibson.) Did your Board communicate with the Colonial Office and tell them that you could not be subject to continuous delays, and that you were going to take a certain course and ask for their ap- proval?-No.

3533. (Mr. Harris.) Do not you recollect that the Secretary of State at the beginning of 1905, and again in 1907, sent out special instructions that the Govern- ment engineer was to meet the company in every way that he could do without affecting the efficiency of the

line? We inferred that that had been done because, when the latest local representative, Mr. Roy, caine, ho showed a disposition to meet our engineer; bui then we thought something had happened, because afterwards he was less complacent. At first, when he came out, we thought there was going to be a new era and that we should get on swimmingly.

3584. Was there another change then?-On this re- quirement of the local engineer that we should supply him with drawings to be sent home for sanction, we thought something was wrong.

3535. Was that recently?—Yes, that was last year.

3596. (Sir Albert Spicer.) Do I understand from 1905, when that engineer came out till last year, things went fairly smoothly?—No, he did not come out in 1905.

3537. When did he come out ?—I canyut remember off-hand; there have been three engineers.

3538. How long was he out? For about a year and a half.

3530. And for the first part of his sojourn there things went very smoothly --Yes. He went over the line and inspected these very stone drains, and I had a letter from our constructing engineer saying, "You will be glad to hear that Mr. Roy thinks these thoroughly efficient and approves of them”; but they were objected to afterwards.

do

3540. (Mr. Gibson.) Was there any particular reason, you know, for changing the Government engineeri --Yes, they got ill, like everybody else out there.

3541, (Chairman.) You say, "In this connection it may be mentioned that during the construction of a railway in India by a company it is not thought neces sary to incur the expense of a concurrent inspection by 'n resident Government officer. In India, as in England, the only inspection is made by the Govern. ment officer when the line is completed and before opening for traffic. A railway can be inspected at any time to see that the standard of efficiency is maintained, but the employment of a highly-paid engineer for years to inspect the entire process of construction is absolute waste of money." Is that your view? That is my view.

3142. Are we to understand that during the whole time of the construction of this railway there has been sa engineer on the spot supervising every portion of the work?--You.

3513. And corresponding with the Crown Agents on the work?—Yes.

3544. Is there any precedent for that in your pre- vious experience ?—None,

9545. (Jr. Gibson.) And without any power of accepting designs?-That came out, as I say, in the last year, but we could not wait for designs to bo acceptesl; the contract required us to push on without intermission and we had to make the best of it.

3546. (Chairman.) Did your company start making the line without full plans, designs and specifications? -We started making the lower line from Port Herald to Chiromo immediately. We got the construction plans and designs prepared, because we had to make that line before we could carry up an ounce of material for the upper line. On that we adopted these very types of bridges. That lower line, when it was first mafe, was not a contract me, and we had a free hand as to what kind of structures we should pat up.

3547. Was that supervised?—It was not supervised; the engineer did go over it, and said, “I could not accept this on the contract line,” and so on.

3548. Was that occasionally? Yes.

3519. Was the resident, the work -The Crown Agents' engineer generally resiles at Blantyre and romes down, Blantyre being the healthiest place.

3550. Can you suggest any reason why it is pecu- liarly desirable in the case of this railway that this method which you call absolute waste of money should be adopted?—I was very much surprised at it from my experience; I cannot see any reason whatever why it should be necessary.

3551. At the conclusion of your precis you say, “The instances given above, in which the netion of the

MINUTES OF EVIDENCE.

Sir BRADFORD LESLIE, K.C.I.E.

Crown Agents has been arbitrary and unreasonable, ay, some of them, appear unimportant, but every one of them is calculated to enhance the cost and delay the completion of the railway, and in the aggregate they would have made the cost of the Nyasaland Railway equal to that of railways constructed by the Crown Agents in Western Africa." Were they very expensive!--They run up to something like £9,000 & mile-that is without interest.

3552. (Mr. Bailey.) And yours cost how much ?- Ours, with the interest, which will be piled on, will be about £7,000.

353. (Mr. Harris.) Is that an average on the whole

-Yes.

35534, Above Chiromo your expenditure per mile st be much larger, musi it not Yes, much larger. 3564. (Chairman.) Is there anything further which you wish to state to the Committee generally to assist Them in their endeavours to make things better; what do you suggest in order to make things work more smoothly? It is very difficult to say.

The

3555. Something must have occurred to you. Committee see, from your precis, that you have been ach concerned about this matter, your language is fible, and it must have occurred to you that there

a way out of this difficulty i-As I said at the be- ginning. I have been accustomed to work in India, and I thought, being under the Foreign Oflice, as it was hen, that we should be dealt with pretty much as we were in India-that we should construct the railway, that when it was finished it would be inspected, and if it was up to the standard of efficiency it would be *aken over. I had not the least idea we should have

this concurrent inspection.

3658. (Mr. Gibson.) In the case of your contracts in In lia, were the specifications laid down in much

water detail?-No.

357. Had you a free hand?-We had a free hand. There were certain standard strengths of girders which were specified.

3558. (Chairman.) Can you suggest a remody? This precis of your says, in the words of the prophet: There is none that doeth good, no, not one." Does remedy occur to you?-Perhaps there will be no more instances of a private company attempting such thing as to make a railway in a Crown Colony; I should be very sorry to attempt it again. This is an attempt to impose special types, and the contract s not provide for them. A contract was actually executed in September, 1902, and that contract con- templated that the whole railway should be made According to a strict specification. Then our consult- ing engineers said, "No, the circumstances are quite herent in Nyasaland, we will make the line up to a similar standard of efficiency to that of the Rhode- -1an Railway; we will not be bound by any specifica- *ions." After that the Crown Agents engineer used quote these specifications and attempted to make us mply with special types which we could not do. 8550. Do you mean that a loose contract should be loosly interpreted?-No, we wanted to make the rail- way thoroughly efficient; you may be as stringent as you like about that, but do not think we should

und to any special types, because we had to lapt ourselves to the special circumstances of the country.

3560. (Sir Albert Spicer.) How long were you in India-I was there from 1858 to 1887.

3501. May I ask what age you were in 1887 when you left India?-I was then 56 years old.

562. When did you go on to this African business? -I began to take an interest in it long before the

oncession was granted.

3563. What is the date of the concession ?—The date of the concession, or rather the contract, is December, 1902,

3564. When did you go out to Africa?--I have not been to Africa.

3565. You have not been there at all?-No, not at all.

3566. So that you do not know the country-Except by the reports and surveys.

151

(24 July 1908.

3567. Have you been the consulting engineer in England?--Yes.

3568. And you have simply had your representative in Nyasaland who has reported to you -That is so.

3569. Has it all been by correspondence, or have you ever seen him?-He has been home two or three times.

3570. Where was be originally at work; what did you know of him?-He was employed on very similar railways in Burma.

3571. Under the Indian Government?—No, under the Burma Railway Company.

3572. 1 take it that would be ultimately under the Indian Government, would it not; the work would have to be done to the satisfaction of the Indian Government, would it not?—Yes.

3573. So that your consulting engineer would know, would he, what were the requirements of the Indian Government?—Yes.

3571. You had both, in fact, grown up under Indian Government supervision. had you?-Yes. Previous to being on the Burma Railway he was on the Bengal. Nagpur Railway; my son, who was the chief engineer on the Bengal-Nagpur Railway, knew Mr. Pears; aud it was in that way that we engaged him,

3575. Has your consulting engineer seen the Male- king-Buluwayo Railway?-Our consulting engineers were the engineers of that railway. Sir Charles Met- calfe inspeets our lines, and Sir Charles Metcalfe con- structed the Mafeking-Buluwayo Railway.

3578. Has your resident engineer seen the Mafcking- Bulawayo Railway?—No.

3577. Who has seen it amongst those working on the spot-Sir Charles Metcalfe is not working on the spot.

8578. (Chairman.) But does he go out there?-Yes, ho has inspected our line throughout twice from end to end.

3579. But, as a matter of fact, no one else who is at work on the Nyasaland Railway has seen the Mafeking and Buluwayo Railway--Sir Charles Met- calfe knows it, because he made the Buluwayo Rail- way, and he has inspected our line twice.

3580. (Sir Albert Spicer.) In your precis you refer to house-boats and steam launches on the river; how many of those things are there --I do not know; they used to use them for passengers coming up the river.

9581. Is there a large number, because you write of it as if it were the Thames-house boats and steam launches." When you refer to the African Lakes Corporation, what are they duing in that imme diate district? They have a flotilla which importa and exports between Chindi and Port Herald.

3582. Is their centre Blantyre-They also work on the Lake Nyasa, I think; I do not know much about them. They have a purtage from the extremity of the railway up to Fort Johnson—the lake port.

3589. I take it you have felt that the discipline, if I may call it so, to which you have been subject in connection with this railway, was perfectly different to anything you had been accustomed to in India?— Entirely.

3584. There has been, I take it, an utter absence of confidence in you?—Absolutely.

8585. (Sir Ralph Moor.) Before you obtained your concession and contract for this railway, the general system of construction of railways had been through the Crown Agents, had it not?-Yes.

3588. Just about that time was there considerable agitation and comment in this country as to the cost of that system of construction - I believe so.

3587. Was it, to an extent, do you think, as the result of that comment that you obtained your con- cassion and contract with a view to trying some new system that might be cheaper?-I have sometimes thought so, but we cannot say. I did have that im- pression.

3588. In that case you and your Corporation would be representing, would you not, a system for railway construction in the Crown Colonies which would be to an extent the rival of the Crown Agents' system 1--- Yes

'

I