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PUBLIC RECORD OFFICE

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C.O.885

19 PUBLIC RECORD OFFICE, LONDON

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152

24 July 1908.]

CROWN AGENTS' ENQUIRY COMMITTEE:

Sir BRADFORD Leslie, K.CL.E.

3580. That being the case the opposing system, ot the Crown Agents was your critic and your supervisor in your construction?Yes, entirely.

3590. Does that strike you as being an unfair posi- tion? It did make it very awkward for us indeed.

3591. Do not you think the remedy for getting over the difficulty would be the appointment of some other body than those responsible for the rival system, to be your supervisors and criticisers?—Yes; I think that would relieve the situation. There are extensions which must be made; but I have quite made up my mind that if it was to be done again under the Crown Agents I would rather retire.

3592. You represent practically a private enterprise as opposed to a Governmental system of construction? -Yes.

3593. And the question is which can be done cheaper?—Yes.

3594. You were trying to do it cheaper than the rival system 7-Yes.

3595. And the body responsible for your supervision was the body representing the rival system?Yes.

8596. (Mr. Gibson.) With regard to the contracts carried out by you in India, in cases of dispute was

there a clause providing for a resort to arbitration 7-- Yes.

The

3597. The system was practically the same, was it, and the only difference is the way in which the things were carried out?--The system was the same. Secretary of State lays down that he shall select the route and the type of railway; the weight of rails is generally specified, single line or double line, and so on; but further than that there is no specification whatever.

3508. And if the Public Works Department, the Royal Engineers in India, had adopted the same atti- tude as the resident engineer of the Crown Agents here. would you have had to resort to arbitration?- Yes, but we have never had any trouble there.

3599. (Mr. Inthes.) May I ask if your company is paid in cash for the raflway it has built; does it receive a cash payment for making the railway?—It will receive a cash payment for making the railway if in 25 years the Colonial Secretary takes it over.

3600. Meanwhile what consideration does it receive for its expenditure?-When we get the certificate that it has been completed to the standard of efficiency then we are to get grants of land.

3001. But in ile meanwhile no cash payments for 23 years? No, no cash payments for 25 years.

The witness withdrew:

Mr. W. L. Gatrrirn, called and examined,

3602. (Chairman.) Are you Secretary to the High Commissioner for Canada 7-Yes.

3603. Have you been so for some time?-About six

years.

3304. You understand this Committee is inquiring into the staff and general working of the Crown Agents Office here, and we shall be very grateful if you will tell us how you work in the case of Canada. The Crown Agents duties are these: They manage the finances of all the Crown Colonies, and whenever a Crown Colony has to buy anything which cannot be procured locally, instead of sending to its own ngent it sends to the Crown Agent, who is agent for them all, and it occurs to us that similar duties devolve upon the agent in this country to the Canadian Govern ment Yes, but only to some extent. You see, a great many things are got in Canada. but we act for the Department of the Militia and Defence, and the War Office purchase for us.

3605. Do you act as regards loans?Yes, the TTigh Commissioner does. We have the Bank of Montreal here, who are the Financial Agents of the Govern ment. They have an agency and a Board here, and the finances in London are dealt with in consultation with the High Commissioner.

3806. When the Canadian Government wishes, as it constantly does, to buy large quantities of stores for Government purposes, do they communicate with you? The chief purchases that are made in this country for the Canadian Government are for the Department of Militia and Defence, and those purchases are made chiefly through the War Office. We look after the financial side and keep track of the accounts and so forth, and make payments.

3607. Is there any other large item with which you deal? Not constantly occurring: I take it that Canada would perhaps be in a different position to the Crown Colonies, because most of the supplies for the Canadian Government are purchased in Canada, with the exception of the warlike stores.

3609. Do I understand that manufactured articles are obtained through the local agenta?—There may be a number of purchases made in that way, but I take it that the great bulk of purchases for the Canadian Government are made in Canada.

3609. Then they have not a rule apparently in Canada, so far as you know, that if a thing is made in England it should be ordered by you in England 7- I should say the rule would be that if a thing was made in Canada it would be got there.

3610. That no doubt would be so, but one knows that an enormous volume of things are made in England and exported to Canada, but is there any rule, so far as you know. that when the Canadian Government wants anything manufactured in England it is ordered through you-No, no absolute rule.

3011. Is it ordered through a local agent 7--The High Commissioner is the representative in London of the Canadian Government, and he also acts as the com- mercial representative of each department, so that pro- bably any purchase made by these departments would be made through the High Commissioner.

3612. In the Railway Department, for instance?- Yes. there has not been much in that direction of late years, but the purchase of rails has been made through the High Commissioner. ceased of late years?

That has almost

3018, Why? They are getting their supplies else where; many of the rails would be manufactured in Canada.

3614. What about locomotives 7-A good many of the locomotives have been manufactured at Kingston. Ontario, and there has also been a factory opened within late years at Montreal. They have also, I believe, made purchases in this country, 'but 1 take it the tendency will be to get supplies on the spot.

3615. Is that the settled policy of the Canadian Government?—Yes, naturally.

3316. Can you tell the Committee what other work devolves upon you?-The work of the High Commis· sioner is very comprehensive, but I do not know that ther is very much else which is material which is likely to be of interest to the Committee.

3017. What kind of work devolves upon your office? I ask the question, because it seems to work well and we seek for enlightenment ?-We have a very consider- able correspondience with your office, and there are the stores which I mentioned, which are purchased for

MINUTES OF EVIDENCE.

Mr. W. L. Gurrit.

the Militia Department through the War Office, which gives rise to a great deal of work. Then we have a very large correspondence with the public on general matters relating to Canada.

3618. Such as emigration?—An infinite variety of subjects; I would not pretend to mention even a part of them. Every conceivable subject comes up in one form or another. Any Canadian who wants help or assistance, and most of those wanting information about Canada, come to us for it.

3619. You are more like an embassy in those re- spects, are you?—Yes.

tho

3620. You have diplomatic dealings with Government here which we know of, and you are also regarded, are you not, as the protectors of Canadians? Yes, Then, of course, there is the commercial side of our office; that has been growing very rapidly, and when I say the commercial side I mean bringing in If n touch the Canadian with the Englishman. Canadian wants to get in touch with the English anufacturers he communicates with us, and we put him in tnch where we can with the Englishman.

3021. (Mr. Gibson.) Is that the private individual? Yes.

3622. (Chairman.) Does it happen frequently that private individuals, wishing to purchase goods in England, apply to you for assistance?—Yes, That side of our work has grown very much in the last few years. Then there is the case of the Englishmen who want to make business connections in Cannda who often approach us, and we put them in touch with Canadians. There are many Canadians to-day who are at the head of very flourishing businesses whose first connection arose through our offre, and I believe the same thing applies to England.

364293. (Sir Ralph Mour.) That you would rather call your Commercial Intelligence Branch, I suppose?— That would be a correct term; we do not pretend la go beyond that.

3624. What sort of staff have you for the purpose? -Part of our staff attends to that; our staff is small. 3425. How many of them are there in the office?— We have a large outsile staff as well, but the cominer- vial side of things forms part of the work of myself and two clerks. We do not pretend to go bevond the intelligence side of things.

3626. As far as you know is your office here a popu lar or unpopular institution' 'I do not know that I should be a very impartial judge of that, but I should think that the office is a popular office. There have len of late years no complaints about it,

3027. There has been no campaign against it ?--No: on the contrary we have correspondence which shows very much to the contrary.

3828, (M). Bailey.) You are considered to be some- what enterprising, are you not, in looking after the commercial interests?--I think we are conservative. Of course, if we see any proper opportunity of saying something about anything Canadian we avail ourselves of it.

3629, (Chairman.) Broadly, is the principle of the office that you are put there to oblige. You are con- stantly engaged in obliging people who write to you for information, and you give it?—Yes.

3630. T that chiefly your function, or, to put it the other way, during the course of your work from day to day, are you constantly engaged in having to put people in their place to prevent them doing what they would otherwise wish to do, or are you engaged in assisting people? Of course, we are very much in touch with Canadians who came over here and want assistance. We regard it as one of our chief missions to do what we properly can for the Canadian coming

over here

3631. On the social side? Not only that, but in regard to any matter on which a Canadian may have business in London. Perhaps we go further than we pught -I do not know- but at any rate there has en no disposition to narrow down our duties, where We can help a Canadian over here, whether it comes within the line of what one might consider to be the

strict official view or not.

3632. In point of fact, opportunities for friction do

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(24 July 1908.

not often arise either with the Canadian Government or with Canadian people? Dues friction often. arise? I daresay there -There has not been any friction. might be if the business was not looked after and care was not taken to deal with inquiries and with persons in a discreet, tactful and prompt way, because the Canadian expects a good deal, and he gets it as a rule."

He expects a great deal from his officials, and he is the last man in the world to put up with red tape on the part of the officials of Canada. That is the spirit of the country. Perhaps I might add in regaril to commercial work while we do what we can we are very careful to accept no responsibility, and in put- Ling one man in touch with another, in very prominent red-headed lines we give notice that we accept no responsibility. They go ahead and prosecute tho suggestions, which we make to them. in their own way

and on their own responsibility. We have found it very necessary to make that very plain, because as will happen, where there is a large business and intra- ductions have been made as the result of the intel- ligence side of our work, occasionally the business con- nections which ensue are not satisfactory, and then Now wo there was a tendency to blame the office. have very plainly put it before those with whom we come into contact that we accept no responsibility.

3633. With regard to the tentre of your staff, are you part of the "Canadian Civil Service, and are you paid the Civil Service rate of pay, or what ?- Prior to 1888 the Canadian representation in London consisted of an agent under the supervision of the Department f Agriculture. Then in 1888 the office of the High Commissioner was constituted a Department of the Government by an Act of Parliament, and the officers were given a status under the Civil Service, so that all the officers of the High Commissioner's Office are members of the Civil Service.

3634. Then you are 8 separate department of the Canadian Government which happens to reside over here?Yes; that was by an Act of 1888.

3635. (Sir Albert Spicer.) Was that the date of the foundation of your present system-Yes, of the High Commissioner. Previously there was simply an agent under the supervision of a Minister.

3636. Then the various members of your staff would be Canadians. I suppose?-As a matter of fact, no.

3637. But still they are un the Civil Service of the Canadian Government?-They are in the Civil Service of the Canadian Government, but as a matter of fact they are Englishmen; I think I am the only man on the staff who has resided in Canada.

3638, (Mr. Gibson.) Do they enter under a system of examination --These gentlemen I may say had been in the service of the Government previous to the passing of the Act, and there is a special provision in the Act that they should be put on the list and be exempted from examination.

3639. What is the practice as to new appointments? The matter is just -The position is a changing one. being dealt with at Ottawa in a new Civil Service Bill, and the position is not clear, but I should say the ten- dency will be to insist an examination, although the legal position is that we may take on the stall without

examination.

3010. I suppose regular scales of pay and increments are laid down by the Canadian Government, with pen- sion rights-There was up to. I think. 1896 a pension cheme. Then when the Laurier Government camo into power they altered it. and, instead of having a pension scheme, there was a retirement fund formed into which a man pays 5 per evnt. of his salary.

3611. In any case this staff wall come under the rules applicable to the whole of the Canadian Civil Service. I suppose?—Yes,

3642. (Sir Albert Spicer) Wha: staff had you in 888-About a dozen, roughly.

3643. How many have you now?-- Abt the same number. although the work has very much increased. I am speaking simply of the High Commissioner's Office. Now the High Commissioner exercises general sup re vision over the service in this country, and incident- ally in Europe, ton; but there are a great many more Canadian officials in this country than these in the High Commissioner's Offic: for instance emigration officials, and there are the official of the Agricultural

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