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148

24 July 19008.]

CROWN AGENTS' ENQUIRY COMMITTEE :

Sir BRADFORD LESLIE, K.C.I.E.

that the Italians had absconded, and that we could do nothing; but he was simply obdurate. The meet- ing lasted two hours, and Mr. Rees tried his best to persuad him.

2170. Can you tell the Committee where you have had a similar experience before, because such ques- Trons must have arisen in your experience in dealing with other Government Departments?—No, 1 never Þave had such ‹xperience; in Inba they are particu laiks anawus to accept any type which is thoroughly

.

3471. Can you suggest to the Committee any reason for the exceptional difficulty you had in dealing with the Crown Agents. Is it because of something excodd. ngly ditheul about the railway in the country, or has it something to do with the office?- It appeared, and still appeats to me, that the engineer was un- reasonable.

3172. (Mr. Gibson.) Do you consider that Mr. Eyles h any knowledge of local conditions; had he be responsible for the design or construction of any other railways in similar places-I believe the 'Crown Agents constructed the railways in Nigeria, Western Ainea, which cost very much more than thus railway, and there was an instänee which I cited to Mr. Eyles of a bridge over the Yupon River which was built on masonry abutments; and after a tal which pose up and saturated the bank at the lack these abutments suddenly subsided and the thrust of the bank ove threw the abutments and let in a train. That would not happen with the type we have built; I' main in that the type which the Railway Company have built as suprior for bridges of this description. 3173. (Chairman.) Do you consider that the bridgo you have built is a better type of bridge than the one you have shown in the top sketch ?-Yes, because it lets through the the water and it uppose less ob- struction to the torrent. When the torrent rises the into the torrent, and masonry bridge juts out

the water has to swirl round it, whereas we have a slope on each side and as the water rises the waterway

increases.

3174. Can you tell the Committee whether you have adopted the same principle with regard to railways provided by Governinent elsewhere? Many of the main bridges in India have sloped ends like that, because they do not depend on any masonry abutments to stand the Bloods. 1 have some photographs showing the types of bridges which have been built on this rail. way producing sume).

3175. (Mr. Gibson.) Are these photographs of bridges on the Nyasaland railway?—Yes.

3476. (Chairman.) Have they all to be taken down? That is what the Crown Agents say. Here is a photograph of a bridge in which we put concrete piers. 3477. Do you mean that the Crown Agents say they will not take over the railway until that is done?- Yes.

3478. (Mr. Gibson.) Do you know if the Crown Agents were responsible for the construction of the Uganda Railway -No; Sir Alexander Rende! and Under Mr. Robertson were responsible for that. special authority they imported labour from India. We applied for permission to do the same, but it was not granted.

3179. So far as I see the bridges there were con- structed on the same lines as you have constructed?— That is 50.

3480. (Sir Albert Spicer.) Why were not all these questions gone into before the contract was arranged? They did not require going into; the contract simply requires the standard of efficiency to be similar to that of the standard railway, the Mafeking and Balu. wayo Railway, but there are very few bridges on that Tailway which runs through a level rolling country. I have a photograph of a station on that railway. I need hardly say we have no stations like that (producing same),

3481. (Chairman.) Will you tell the Committee whether you are convinced as an engineer that this particular type of bridge is adequate and is up to the standard which you consider necessary 7-Yes. I con- sider it is up to the highest standard of efficiency. The material is permanent, there is no timber mate- rial in it, the plinths on which the steel trestles are

1.

erected are of cement concrete; the girders are of steel resting on concrete bed blocks on top of the trestles, and there is no timber work at all.

3482. What would be the approximate cost of making the alterations which I understand the Crown Agents insist upon before taking the lure over!--It is very dificult to tell; it would run into a huge figure I say, moreover, it is impossible to do the work as re quired, until you can tram negroes to do good masonry, and then you must have an enormous amount of supervision.

3183. What is the present situation? The railway is there. Do the Crown Agents refuse to take it over until the supports of these bridges are converted into masonry abutments --Yes. The engineer will not give a certificate under the contract.

3484. What will be the approximate cost of fulfilling the requirements of the Crown Agents before they give a certificate with regard to these bridges ---It is impos sible to carry the work out, unless labour could be got to build masonry in that country,

3485. Then are you absolutely at a deadlock ?— Except that if they refuse to grant & certificate the matter has to go to arbitration.

3486. (Mr. Harris.) You are not quite right in say ing "they" are you; it is the Government engineer! -Yt's.

3487. (Mr. Gibson.) Have the company no right of appeal beyond the engineer or the Crown Agelits!- un buration Noue except arbitration; there is clause.

3458. (Mr. Bailey.) Will that bo an expensive operation -Yes, of course, it mus. be; naturally arbitrations are very expensive, especially when you require the highest professional advice.

3489. (Mr. Harris.) But you have not got to that point yet, have you f-No, because we have not yet asked the Crown Agents for a certificate that the ran- way is completed in accordance with the contract. We are ready to do so excepting for one bridge, the bridge over the Shire River.

3100. (3/7. Gibson.) I suppose before procceding to arbitration it will be possible for you to appeal to the Colomal Ottice-Yes, of course we shall ask for the certificate through the Colonial Ollies. Our consult- ing engineers, Sir Douglas Fox and partners, and Sir Charles Metcalfe, will send out either ir Charles Metcalfe or a properly qualitied engineer to report upon the completion of the railway; that will pro- bably be in October. When we get their report, which we liave no doubt will be satisfactory, w "shali write to the Colonial Office and say that we have finished the railway, and ask for a certificate that it is up t the standard of efficiency, not up to any particular types at all, because they do not come into the con-

tract.

3191, (Mr. Leathes.) It has to be according to the standard of eliciency of a particular ratiway, has IL-Y6.

3102. (Mr. Gibson.) At what stage did the Crown Agents or their engineer rai this point Immedi- ately we put them up.

3193. Although the terms of the contract were very general as to the standard of elficiency, was not this question discussed between yourselves and the Crown Agents engineers before you started work; did not you go into this class of question --Yes, we had that

ting I was telling you about.

3194. Was that before you started? Yes, and I took the designs to Mr. Eyles with Mr. Hobson, of Sir Douglas Fox and partners, and told him that was what we were going to erect, but he has never departed from the position that he must have masonry abutments and wing walls.

3195. (Sir Ralph Moor.) There was nothing in the contract to determine the class of bridge you had to put up?-No.

3496. It was simply a standard of eliciency to which you had to conform ?--Yes.

3107. Then the question arose when the bridges were being put up whether they were according to that standard of efficiency-Yes. We hunted for building stone and hunted for lime, and took a great deal of

MINUTES OF EVIDENCE.

Sir BRADFORD LESLIE, K.C.I.E.

double to endeavour to comply with their wishes, but there is no lime in the whole country, and you cannot thegral bricks. You can make bricks which are gal enough for a house, but not fit to stand the Then the wight and vibration of railway traffic. building stone is refractory.

3198. (Chairman) In all these matters have you has dealings with the Crown Agents themselves, or enly with Mr. Eylest-Being professional matters we went to Mr. Eyles; we have not troubled the Crown Agents directly because they simply act on his ad-

vice.

3199. How is the situation different to what it would have been if you had been dealing with the Inita Office or the Colonial Oflice, with whom you say you have always got on so well-In India, taking the first railway 1 constructed there, the Eastern Bengal Railway, the country is difficult and subject to tools; I had to design special structures, and the Government has, or had, consulting Royal Engineers see that the contracts were properly carried out. They used to go through the designs with me and said were right, and we never had any difficulty

whatever.

3500. Supposing this particular engineer, Mr. Eyles, had been appointed by another Government Department, say the India Office or the Colonial Olice, can you suggest to the Committee that the difliculties would have been less than they are now. We seem to be drifting into a discussion of the quali- fications of Mr. Eyles, which is beside the question. 1 point is whether you would have had ile samo difficulties with one of the Government olliers?-1 can only tell you that it appears to us that the Crown Agents did not like an independent company getting a'eqcession, to build a railway in a Crown Colony, and we suppose there was a sort of prejudice against us, and although no special instructions were given there may have been a feeling that if we fail to complete our work, it would confirm their position that no independent people should be allowed to construct railways in a Crown Colony. That is the ide I have formel.

.

3701. Can you tell the Committee anything else on which you hase that opinion/-Only the difficulties which are thrown in our way by their engineer. Personally I believe Mr. Eyles is an excellent man.

3502, (Sir Pulph Mour.) Do you contend that Mr. Ephs is prompted in the attituile he has taken up by the Crown Agents themselves?-You can only reason from the circumstances to the causes of those eirema- stances. We do not know of any other reason, but he has been consistently hostile to our company.

3503, (l'hairman.) With regard to the bridge over the Shire River, does the same thing apply? Be- cause in this case it appears that the whole matter was settled on the spot -It was settled at the seat of the Government at Zomba.

3001. Why do you think it is the fault of the Crown Agents-In this way: representations from the African Lakes Company and the Flotilla Com- pany as to the impossibility of the navigation of the upper river through the bridge designed by us were put before Sir Alfred Sharpe, and the necessity of this bridge was put before him by these men, and the Government engineer endorsed it.

3505-6. Do you mean the engineer appointed by the Crown Agents --Yes, he endorsed all these représen- tations, and it was his endorsement which compelled us to erect the more expensive bridge; Sir Alfred Sharpe could only accept a thing which was recom- mended to him and endorsed by the Government engineer.

3507, You say in your précis that "20 miles out of 60 are through the Elephant Marsh, the channels are tortuous and frequently not 30 feet wide, and in their best state passable only by vessels drawing 20 inches of water, and for three or four months in the year"?

That is 50.

3508. And therefore "the impossibility of putting vessels of 60 feet beam with corresponding length and draught of water on such a stream was exposed by this company's representative. No man who did not know that the inquiry was a farce, and that the case was prejudged in his favour, would have ventured seri- susly to put forward such absurd ideas as to cotton

149

[24 July 1908.

development and 60 feet beam Mississipi steamers as propounded by the representatives of the African Lakes Corporation. Such nonsense might be good

enough to impose on persons not acquainted with the locality such as the oficials of the Colonial Office"? Of course it might be a very big river, but it is not. 3509. (Mr. Harris.) Do not you remember matter of fact that we had a meeting in Mr. Winston

Churchill's rout, when he was Under Secretary of State, at which a modification of the whole plan wa. adopted -1 remember you bringing your plan of th bridge so that they did not really, as a matter of fact, impose on anyone, did they Their first re- quirement was that it should be a high level bridge, high enough to clear the funnels and masts of steamers,

and the modification which was accepted was that it should be a low level bridge with a spun to lift up, and so far there was a modification.

3510. That showed that the Secretary of State in- tervened, did it not?-Yes.

3511. (Chairman.) You seem to feel acutely about this bridge because you say that when this bridge is finished in the form in which it is now proposed to be built, it will remain a per-nuial memorial to the ways of the Crown Agents? There will be no naviga- tion. There are the high piers erected for the lift- ing pan; it is a ridiculous structure, and it will always remain +0.

3312. Did you appeal to the Colonial Office with re- gard to this bridge?—Yes, we did; I think the correspondence is on record. Sometimes we went direct to Mr. Eyles and sometimes we acted through the Colonial Secretary.

3513. You say that you have always received the greatest friendliness and courtesy and there has been an obvious desire to do the right thing?-Certainly.

3514. If that be so, was there any reason why you should not take advantage of that in these exceptional difficulties -The matter did come before the Secretary of State, but you see he could only refer to the Crown Agents, and they could only refer to their engineer.

3515. (Mr. Harris.) But is it not the fact that there was a strong local demand for the preservation of the fairway of the waterway -The local demand was by two people, the agents of the African Lakes Company and the engineer of the Flotilla Company.

3516. That may be so, but 1 think you must admit there was a strong local demand voiced by the Govern men out there - Sir Alfred Sharpe always said there was a navigation on the river, and at the end of the cycle of bad years it would again become navigable, but that has not arrived yet.

3517. Would not Sir Alfred Sharpe say that the cycle of bad years has not come to an end -Well, it has been a long while about.

3518. (Chairman.) Then you have a complaint about the £5 per hour for every craft delay1, and say that if the Ruo flood chokes the channel of the Shire River it may take days to clear it Yes. The Ruo River comes down from Mount Malangi which is 9.000 feet high, and has tremendous storms on it, and that river sometimes rises very high and brings down an enor- The Shire River being low, mous quantity of silt. the Ruo River flows up it and deposits this silt, and in a single night it may block our approach.

3519. And during that time, according to you, every houseboat or steam launch that could be m. tered would make a harvest at the expense of the railway by claiming £5 per hour for not being able to get through the lifting span?—That is so; why should not they?

3520. In this matter did you appeal to the Crown to the Colonial Office-There Agents themselves or was a very long correspondence about it; we did not like to be made the custodians of the river.

3521. Still you had to accept the situation had you? -We had to accept it, because we wanted to get the concession to put the lower line, as it is called, the Port Herald line, on a sound and permanent basis.

3522. I do not think I need take you through the details of your difficulties with regard to ballast, and so forth, but I will ask you what is your view with Are the Committee to regard to the type of railway. gather that you think you have been asked to make

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