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PUBLIC RECORD OFFICE

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C.O.885

19 PUBLIC RECORD OFFICE, LONDON

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21 July 1908.]

CROWN AGENTS' ENQUIRY COMMITTER:

Mr. W. ERAUT.

3432. (('huirman.) There are only two more ques tions I want to ask you, and the first question is: Is that part of the staff which you represent satisfied with the present arrangement by which the salaries are somewhat uncertain, or would they prefer to be on a more certain scale?-Most decidedly they would prefer to be on a more certain scale.

3433. You think they are unanimous upon that ?— Most certainly.

3434. The second question is: So far as you know, would those you represent wish to approximate more nearly to the Civil Service with regard to pay, pro- motion, pension, increments, and so forth 7 Would they sooner be under Civil Service rules so far us they apply to your branch, or would they sooner re- remain as they are -That is rather an involved question.

3435. It is not an involved question, but the answer may be very involved.—1 should put it that way, sir, There has been no desire expressed to become Civil servants at all, but there has been a desire expressed to enjoy

3438. (Sir Francis Mowatt.) The benefits of both systems-1 will put it in that way.

3437. (Mr. fribson.) Are there any advantages pos- sessed by the Civil Service which are not possessed by you at the present time?-Higher maximum salaries,

most certainly.

343. (Sir Francis Moratt.) As affecting your sala. ries, do you receive any share of the income-tax poundage? We receive a share of the poundage, but that is small compared with the maximum salary we The important point, I consider we ought to have. think, really is to consider the small probability of promotion we have. If you take one of iny colleagues, the last gentleman appointed, he is 32, and presum. ably he will get his maximum salary when about 40, and his chance of promotion under the present régime will come when four or five men about his own age have passed away.

3430. (Mr. Gibson.) Do any of your class get promo- tion or transfer to public departments like the Admir. alty or the Post Office?-No.

3440. No selection has been made from your staffi Xo; three of my former colleagues have left and taken up appointments abroad or something of that sort.

3441. No officers go from your branch to the Public Works Department appointments in any of the Colo- nies? Have you ever asked to be considered for appointments in the Public Works Departments in the various Colonies ?--One gentleman who has left us. Mr. Reynolds, has taken a position in East Africa, but that is not in any way connected with his pre- vious position with the Crown Agents.

3442. Would not your work and experience in the Crown Agents Office be a recommendation for an appointment under Government in the Colonies?— Some people may consider: “You have been rusting in that office for so many years; I have got a man who has been on executive work here quite recently, and he is the better man of the two."

3443. You do not think there is any advantage to the public service in an interchange really between the Public Works Department appointments in tho Colonies and the appointments in the Crown Agents' ? We have had it represented to us that there is a want of touch between the Crown Agents' Office and the Colonies and the requirements of the different Colo nies. and it has been suggested that people who have been employed in certain Colonies might with advan· tage enter the Crown Agents' Office, either as inspec- tors or in the Works Department; do you think there would be any possibility of such an interchange ?—No, I do not.

3444. And there would be no chance of improving your prospects if there were such a scheme 7--No.

your recommendation 3445. (Chairman.) We note

A. that is, that so many years' service shall be added in accordance with the provisions of Section 4 of the Superannuation Act?-f think that is a generally accepted rule in the Civil Servion.

3446. And we also note B, that the heads of sections in the Works Department who are technical men should have a distinct status and not be classed with the third-class clerks. Again, 1 put my involved question to you-at least, which you so described, although it is a very simple one, and I ask you to give me such an answer as you are capable of giving: what is your view and the view of your friends as to the desirability of coming more under the Civil Service, which would, of course, solve the first problem for you automatically-All retirements which have been made from the office to my knowledge of recent years have been controlled, and the pension allowance has been controlled, niore or less, by the Civil Service regu-

lations.

3447. When you say "controlled," what do you mean?-I think they are submitted to the Secretary of State, if I am not mistaken, and be approves the pen- sion. The pension is calculated on the rule of 1-60th of the salary for every year's service up to a maxi- mum of 40 years' service.

,

the

3448. (Mr. Harris.) Are you aware that in view of the Report of the Ridley Commission of 1888, if a pension with a proposal for an addition of years for professional qualifications were submitted to Secretary of State he would question it at once?-1 believe the section of the Act fo which I refer is still in force.

3149. (Mr. Leathes.) It is, but the Treasury does not act under it. I was not aware of that.

* 3430. (Mr. Gibson.) It is the case that in most de- partments the technical officers are not graded with the clerical staff; they have titles of their own, and therefore you consider that in the Crown Agents' Office you are graded with and the scales are the same as those of the clerical staff?-It is distinctly detri mental to us in one or two instances.

3451. In what way-You have heard of the pension insurance scheme? That arranges that certain sale. ries shall carry certain insurance. When my salary went over £300 1 was told that, although my salary should naturally take increased insurance, it would not apply in my instance, as I was a third-class clerk; it consequently happens that with my present salary of £340 I pay the 5 per cent. towards the office insurance scheme, but my insurance is only on the £300 scale.

3452. (Sir Francis Mowatt.) In the letter which was written to you when you were appointed, did they say anything to you about your appointment to a The advertisement was for an engineering class? assistant-An engineer office assistant, and it men- tioned no class whatever.

3453. (Chairman.) Is there any other particular point you wish to bring before the Committee?-- There is no other point except that I wish to emphasise the pension point, because it is a matter of vital importance to one or two members. Take the case of the chief inspecting engineer, who was 40 years of age when appointed to the Crown Agents' staff. It is virtually impossible for any man to have had the experience required for that position at a younger nge. If he is to be bound down to the age limit and only to have his pension reckoned from 40 to 65, or whatever is his retiring age, his pension will be very small in comparison to his salary.

3451. (Mr. Gibson.) With all his experience, was he brought in at the ordinary salary of £2501-£500; he was appointed head of the Engineering Works Department at £500, and that is not a large salary considering the requirements of the position.

3455. (Mr. Harris.) Taking your own case, you came in at 27 as you told us?--Yes. If you take my age at 27, and you take a third-class clerk coming in at 10 or 20, with a training far less expensive and difficult than that of an engineer, at 27 he has virtu- ally reached the point at which I started, and from that we go on at equal salaries until we are pensioned, when he has the advantage of seven years over me.

3456. (Mr. Gibson.) In these other Government departinents to which you refer, there is not this addition of years: do they come in younger?--I am under the impression that there is an addition of years, and I know that in one Government department at least there is.

The witness withdrew. (Adjourned to Friday next at half-past 10 o'clock.)

MINUTES OF EVIDENCK.

FOURTEENTH DAY,

Friday, 24th July, 1908.

At the Colonial Office, Downing Street.

PRESENT:

COLONEL J. E. B. SEELY, D.S.O., M.P. (Chairman).

Sir RALPH Moon, K.C.M.G.

H. J. Gusos, Esq., C.B.

R. BAILEY, Esq., M.V.O., I.S.0.

Sir ALBERT SPICEE, Bart., M.P. S. M. LEATHEs, Esq.

C. A. HARRIS, Esq., C.B., C.M.G.

A. J. HARDING (Secretary).

Sir BRADFORD LESLIE, K.C.I.E., called and examined.

3157 (Chairmay.) The committee are very much obliged to you for coming to give evidence. Will you. first of all, tell them who and what you are?—I am a civil engineer. I was a pupil of the late Mr. Branel on the Great Western Railway for twelve years. Then I went to India, where I was for thirty sears, and I have been the whole of my time at Since I returned work on railway construction. from India I have been engaged in the management of Indian railways, and Her late Majesty Queen Victoria conferred on me the honour of Knighthood for my professional services in India.

3168. (Mr. Gibson.) Were you in the Government service? No. I was a civil engineer, and acquired my knowledge of engineering under the late Mr. Brunel, ani was employed by him on his largest bridges, the bridge over the Tamar at Saltash and the bridge over the Wye nt hopstow.

3159, (Chairman.) You say in your prérix of evi- dence that you desire to testify to the uniformly fair and considerate treatment you have experienced from Government officials of all classes. Is that so?— That is so.

3160. Throughout your career?-Throughout my

career.

3161. Did this continue until you took up the con- struction of the Nyasaland Railway 1-Yes.

3462. Did you then for the first time come into con tact with the Crown Agents?-Yes.

33. How was that; were you the engineer of the railway? I was the engineering director, the chair- man of the Nyasaland Railway, and I was specially appointed to that position on account of my profes sional qualifications,

3464. Will you tell the Committee the difficulties which I understand you experienced in working with the Crown Agents other than the necessary difficulties you have experienced in dealing with other Govern ment officials 7-The railway, as you are aware, is a pioneer railway, and it is in a very difficult country. The rise from the lower end of the railway at Port Herald to Blantyre, is 3,500 feet, but it goes over a higher summit of 4,000 feet. The section of the rail- way for the greater part of it is a series of heavy The cuiting and embankments and sharp curves. works are very heavy, and as the rainfall is tropical w have had to provide a very large amount of bridg ing. There we were confronted with the difficulty that the Crown Agents insisted that we should put up masonry structures. We could not do masonry in the Country: the only building stone there is, a very hard and refractory granite. The negroes are not masons, they are only savages. We tried to get Indian masons, but you cannot get Indian masons who are accus- tomed to granite work because the stone they work is freestone, We tried, through our agents, Forbes Campbell and Company, and I tried through personal friends of mine, to get Indian masons, but it was quite hopeless. We got some Englishmen, but they got sick and lie. You know the kind of men masons are ;

they are very much given to drink, and it would have leen very wrong to send out masons from Cornwall or Aberdeen to such a climate to do manual labour. Then we tried Italians who volunteered for the ser- vice. There are no better masons in the world than Italians, but those men gave it up as a bad job and abscouulisi. We had to build the bridges, and we

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steel

adopted a type of structure which in fact does away with masonry altogether. I have here a sketch shew-

and ing a bridge with masonry abutments girders, and the lower sketch shews the type of struc- ture which we erected with steel trestle piers and without the masonry abutments. The Committee Ree there would be a large quantity of masonry in the upper sketch, but in the lower one, by merely putting an additional span on each side, and letting that rest Faved the upun the ends if the embankments, masonry. These structures have been erected through- out and have given great satisfaction.

Wu

3165. (Mr. Gibson.) Did the Crown Agents agree to this -No, they never agreed. I explained to them that I had learned this system from Mr. Brunel who adopted it on the Cornwall Railway.

3166. (Mr. Bailey.) The girders were all wood there, were they not?--They were originally, but the end spans just in the same manner were supported by trestles, and instead of having high masonry shut- ments there was an additional span which restel on the ends of the embankments; there are 50 or 60 vin- ducts which have been built by Mr. Brunel in Corn. wall: the only difference between them and this cou struction being that his structures were timber and ours are steel. It is only recently that those timber structures of Mr. Brunel's have had to be replac by masonry and steel. But in his day the railway could not have been built otherwise.

3167. (Chairman.) You were going to tell us about masonry being impossible because Portland cement and concrete hail to be used; what is the difficulty there?—The difficulty there is the great expense. A 370 lbs. net barrel of cement in England costs 1., and it is considered to be an expensive article in Eng- land, but by the time we got it out there, it varied from 278. 6d. a cask to 35»., and therefore we had to economise its use as much as possible. If coner to had been cheap we might have substituted concrete for masonry, but it is very expensive indeed, and the only material in that way which we could use was cement concrete for the plinths of the steel trestles, and therefore we used it.

3168. Will you tell the Committee how you came into conflict with the Crown Agents, both with regard to the type of bridge and the cement?—The Crown Agents objected altogether to the type of bridge that I adopted, that is the type of bridge in which an ad- ditional side span is substituted for the masonry abutments. They have never admitted that they would accept that. We have built them so because we could not do anything else, and they are there, but the Crown Agents insist before the railway is taken over by Government that they shall be all re- built with masonry abutments.

3469. Is it to these matters you refer when you say in four précis with regard to the opinions of the engineer to the Crown Agents, that they "have gener- ally been couched in terms of papal infallibility"?--- That passage refers to a meeting which Mr. Rees, Bir Charles Metcalfe, Sir Douglas Fox, and myself, had at the office of the engineer to the Crown Agents when we endeavoured to get the engineer, Mr. Eyles,

the to see the impossibility of complying with masonry bridges and to accept the bridges which we had put up. We told him about the English masons dying; we told him we could not get Indians, and

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