CO885-(18-19) — Page 766

PUBLIC RECORD OFFICE

Reference :-

C.O.885

19 PUBLIC RECORD OFFICE, LONDON

ALLY WITHOUT PERMISSION OF THE BE REPRODUCED PHOTOGRAPHIC- COPYRIGHT PHOTOGRAPH-NOT TO

144

CROWN AGENTS' ENQUIRY COMMITTEE:

21 July 1998.

Mr. W. ERAT, called and examined.

3367. (Chairman.) Would you tell us who you are and how long you have been in the office, and how you were appointed I belong to the Institution of Civil Engineers; I am an Associate Member.

3368. Are you on the permanent staff of the Crown Agents' Office1-1 am.

3369. When did you first join?-Abon, seven years ago last March.

3370. How many people are there whom you may be said to represent?—I am selected by the whole of the technical staff, and I think the number is ten.

3371. All these people: Major Carmichael. Mr. Lancaster. Mr. Owen, yourself. Mr. Lock, Mr. Calvert, Mr. Horsburgh, Mr. Heath, Mr. Williams, and Mr. Wimperis 7-Yes.

3372. You have seen them and talked over what you proposed to say?—Yes.

3373. And you are certain you represent their views7-Yes.

3374. How were you first appointed seven years ago-The Crown Agents advertised for an engineer assistant in the Engineering" paper; I applied. and Mr. Winperis and myself were selected as can- didates for the situation. I have a copy of the ad- vertisement here, if you desire to see it. (houding in the same).

3475, M. Gibon,) Do it fix the rates of pay It does, and I think. it fixes the rates of pay for the class I represent of engineer assistants, and that 1s why I brought the copy of the advertisemen with

nie.

3376, (Chairman.) I think I had better rend it "Copy advertisement inserted in Engineering,' the Engineer and the Daily Telegraph. The Crown Agents of the Colonies require immediately the ser vices of an engineering fie assistant who has re- ceived a liberal education, and has also been trained as a civil or mechanical engineer; must have had both practical and office experience, age 25 to 30, commenc- ing salary £250, and rising to £350, with prospect of substantial further promotion. Engagement on one years probation; after that, if made permanent appointment, will carry pension. Apply by letter only, no special form, enclosing copies of testimonials but not originals, stating age and full particulars of education and experience to Crown Agents for the You applied, and Colonies. Downing Street, S.W." what happened then? You passed no examination. I

No.

3377. Were there many other applicants, do you know I have heard there were some hundreds. hut I cannot say definitely.

3378. You were schrted? Yes,

339. On your testimonials and personal inter- views. I suppose? On proof of techtical experience and qualifications.

3350. What had been your technical experience of that kind of work 2. Of course, I had had the usual apprenticeship as a youngster, and studied fairly harl. and got certain scholarships, exhibitions, and that sort of thing. I had also had two years at the Royal College of Science. South Kensington,_aul passe examinations of the Institution of Civil Engi ners, and also had been with a consulting engineer al Westminster engaged in varion undertakings for five or six years.

331. Which set of undertakings Principally gas and waterworks and general public works.

332. (Mr. Gibson. What are were you on appoint- Itent? 27.

333 (Chairman.) May your ense be taken as typi eal as far as you know. of the way those other gen- tlemen have been appointed, and the kind of training they have had' With regard to the kind of training, ertainly. With regard to the appointment. I do not think the Crown. Agents have since advertised any further appointment

What have they done? For the immediate vacancies which occurred I think they wrote to ano er two who were practically selected enndidates when I was appointed, and later they applied to the Cam bridge Thiverzity Appointment Association, as I think

it is termed, for assistance. I think that has been the general course,

3385. (Sir Francis Mowatt) How many men have been appointed since your appointment-1 think it would be five, because three have left to take up more remunerative positions.

33%. (Chairman.) Are you the head of a section !— It is termed the C Section in the Works Department; they are simply denoted by letter.

3487. What sort of a section is that: what does it deal with We go by Colonies in the Works Depart- ment, that is to say, each section has certain Colonies allotted to it, and they do all the work in connection with those Colonies,

3388. Which Colonies have you, for instance!-- I start with Gibraltar. Malta, Cyprus, East Africa, Uganda, Hong Kong, Weihaiwel, the Fiji Islands, Falkland Islands, Trinidad. Gold Coast, Sierra Leone. and Newfoundland; there is rather a conglomeration of them.

3380. It is rather a curious geographical distribu tion which includes Fiji and Newfoundland and Hong started with the geo- Kong-In early days we graphical distribtuion. but the work fluctuates so very much that from time to time one section has been relieved by passing Colonies over to another section. and rire rers, and it has rather done away with the geographical distribution

3990. It is rather a patchwork geographical distri- bution, if you had a map of the thing. I presume there would be people in 'A and B who would be in between you geographically, somewhere between Fiji and Newfoundland-Certainly, and it depends upon which way you go round.

3391. (Mr. Gihon.) The practical arrangement is to divide the work more or less equally -The sole object is to divide the work. If you take the Nigerias, for instance, five or six years ago the work was very small compared to what it is now, and that section has had to be materially relieved from time to time.

3392. (Chairman.) You say you have a staff there: --Yes, I have two fourth class clerks, and two boy copyists under me.

3393. In the Crown Agents' Office - Yes.

3394. Will you tell us the kind of work it is; what falls to you each morning?—Of course, you have had evidence with regan to the general procedure of the office. I take it. An indent comes into the office int the Registration Department, and then is passed through to W Department--the Works Department.

3395. Take a bridge, would there such a thing as an indent for a bridge?—Yes, very often, but rarely so simple. The first thing we have to do is to see that the whole of the information on the requisition is correctly enter-1.

3306. (Mr. Bailey.) Entered where? On the outside of the requisition rover. This information is entered up by the Registration Department. but the Works Department, that is the technical assistant dealing with it, is responsible that it is correct, and that if it contains any special instructions they are noted on the outside of the cover. The next thing, if it is the ense of a bridge for a railway, for instance, which is under the supervision of some consulting engineer, is that we have to refer it to him. If it is a question where there is no consulting engineer, we have to decide what steps should be taken, whether we should call for tenders or obtain estimates in the usual way. We have to decide whether the specification, if ther is any, is sufficient, or whether other specifications should be issued with the tender, and generally t supervise the whole of the procedure from the rečega of the indent until the work is shipped.

3397. (8) Francis Moratt ) Do you ever advise the Crown Agents as to the possibility or desirability of the proposal in the interests of the Colony? With regard to expense we do.

3304, But not with regard to policy ?--It is very diß- cult to lay down a hard and fast rule there, for ine simple reason that some Calonies prohibit, or practi- rally have no consulting engineer for certain works. If there is no consulting engineer the whole of the work is done in the office, either officially or unti- eially, one way or another.

MINUTES OF EVIDENCE.

Mr. W. ERAIL.

3349. (Chairman.) Has Fiji got a consulting engi- neer-There is no work going on in Fiji at present that has a consulting engineer. Consulting engineers act generally with regard to railway construction or important waterworks, or something of that sort, but for the smaller classes of work and for l'ublic Works Department supplies there is rarely a consulting engineer.

3400. (Sir Francis Mowatt.) With regard to a pro- posal, for instance, to put up a buikling in stone or in brick, would you call the attention of the Crown Agents to the fact that brick would not stand, or anything of that sort?-The Colonial Engineer or Director of l'ublic Works indents on the Crown Agents for what he requires; he does not ask the Crown Agents, as a general rule, to express an opinion one way or another?

3401 That, practically, answers my question; you do not meddle with the policy; you only see that the particular work to be carried out is properly carried out? But a good many cases arise when they aro smaller things, and it is very difficult to say that we do not interfere with the policy.

3102. I did not mean "interfere with the policy, but you do not advise upon the policy?-We do ad vise with regard to the policy, I should say.

"

3103. (Chairman.) Can you tell us about the scale of salary, increment, and pension of yourself and the gentlemen you represent? You were appointed at a salary of £2507-Yes.

3104. On a written agreement?-On a letter; they wrote me a letter appointing me at the salary of £250 rising to £350, with prospect of substantial further promotion,

3405, (Mr. Gibann.) By regular increments 7-They did not say regular increments or not, but when I called and interviewed the Crown Agents, they gave me to understand that the increments would be regular subject to good conduct,

3106. But they were not specified. £10, £15, or £207-1 understood. I may have been mistaken, that they would be on a similar scale to the salaries in the Colonial Office.

3107. As a matter of fact, have your increments been regular?-The first three years I had increments of £10 and after that increments of £15.'

3408, (Chairman.) Was the pension mentioned in your letter of appointment ---- Yes.

3109. Was it stated when it was to accrue?—No, it simply stated that it was subject to pension and that the year's probation would be computed in the pension.

3410. At what period did you expect you would get the pension-Mr. Lloyd George's age of 70 or the ago of another witness much younger which we have hap pened to hear about; did you ask -No. I am afraid young people do not always ask all the particulars they ought to do, but I thought it would probably be

65.

3411. You anticipated it would be on the Civil Service basis?—Yes.

3112. (Sir Francis Mowatt.) As a matter of fact. did you ever find a young man entering the Servico really interested in the details of a pension scheme? -I am afraid not.

3413. (Chairman.) Perhaps you could tell us if you an typical in this respect with the others you repre- sent that they have received similar salaries and similar increments as far as you know?—I think so.

3414. Broadly speaking, are they satisfied with their position As regards the immediate present, yes; but, with regard to the future, my thirl sugges- tion to the Committee clearly indicates that we are nut satisfied.

3415. That, in view of the scales of remuneration and the probabilities of promotion enjoyed by engi- neers and other technical officers in the Government Departments generally, the maximum salary of £350 per annum of the Engineering Assistants. heads of sections in Engineering and Works Departments should be materially raised"; you think that the sala- ries should be raised?—The maximum.

e 21

145

21 July 1908,

3416. Because, in your view, your salaries compare unfavourably with those in Government Departments? --Yes.

3417. (Mr. Leather.) What Government Depart- ments are you thinking of ?—The whole of the Govern ment Departments who employ technical assistance in any form.

3418. The Post Office, the Admiralty, and the Office of Works? Yes, and the Home Office, the Factory Inspectors Department, and the Examiners in the Patent Office.

3110. (Mr. Gibson.) In the advertisement substan. tial chances of advancement were talked about?—Yes.

3420. What do those consist of so far as you can see from the present organisation of your office?--At pro- sent there are five engineering assistants at £250 to £350, and one senior appointment which at present is at the maximum of £500.

3121. I that the deputy head of the Works Depart ment. Mr. Lancaster?-Yes.

3122. (Mr. Bailey.) Are you forbidden any chance of promotion to Major Carmichael's post or to Mr. Heath's post-It is difficult to state, but on the last two occasions when Major Carmichael's post has been

vacant

appointed to it.

a person from outside the office has been

3423. (Mr. Gibson.) Are you interchangeable with the Inspection Department?-No, we are a distinct department.

ja

3423. The Engineering Inspection Branch entirely distinct from yours?-Yes, and that would not be open to us.

3124. (Mr. Bailey.) Are the qualifications for the two appointments much the same? Had Mr. Wim- peris, for instance, who was appointed with you, dif- ferent qualifications from yours?-No, but the Inspec tion Department has only been formed three or four years. and Mr. Wimperis desired to go into that branch of the work, so he left the Works Department pure and simple and became a member of the inspec tion staff.

..

3425. They had to transfer a number of your class from the Works Department to the Inspection Depart ment?-Hardly that. They formed the Inspection Department from the staff generally. You see it was a completely new thing.

3426. (Mr. Gibson.) Assuming that the post of as-is- tant in the Engineering Inspection Branch was open to you, that would afford n chance of an increase of pay because they are upon a higher scale?---We can- not assume that that would be open to us, because they have their own juniors; there is the chief inspecting engineer and his two deputies, and there is a large staff outside the office who are not on the office staff but presumably if a vacancy occurred they would consider those men to a certain extent.

3427. You imagine that you are limited to the two promotions possibile, the head of the Works Depart- iment and the deputy head; those are the only two open to you?-Yes,

3428. And the only one that has been filled from your ranks is that of the deputy head?-Yen.

3429, (Chairman.) You wish us to understand in considering the first points you raise that by com- parison with certain Government officials the pay is not so satisfactory, and with regard to your chance of promotion being less, you wish to put it before the Committee that that is the reason for an increase of salary-Yes. I have particulars here taken from the Admiralty Works Department: there is one assistant engineer going from £200 to £300, and two civil engineers going from £300 to £550.

3430. We have the particulars of some other as well? Then there is the Works Department. the

18 there are civil Output Department, whero engineers from £200 to £300, and 31 civil engineers from £300 to £550. There is an obvious probability there of the men going up,

3431. (Mr. Gibson.) Do you suggest that there should be two grades, or simply an increase of pay to a higher maximum?-An increase to a higher maximam, I think,

T

..