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CROWN AGENTS' ENQUIRY COMMITTEE:

21 July 1908.

Mr. W. Enaur, falled and examined.

3367. (Chairman.) Would you tell us who you are and how long you have been in the office, and how you were appointed 7--1 belong to the Institution of Civil Engineers; I am an Associate Member.

3368. Are you on the permanent staff of the Crown Agents' Office 1-1 am.

3369. When did you first join?—-Abou, seven years ago last March.

3370. How many people are there whom you may be said to represent -I am selected by the whole of the technical staff, and I think the uniber is ten.

3371. All these people; Major Carmichael. Mr. Lancaster. Mr. Owen, yourself. Mr. Lek, Mr. Calvert. Mr. Horsburgh. Mr. Heath, Mr. Williams, and Mr. Wimperis?—Yes.

3372. You have seen them and talked over what you proposed to say?—Yes,

3373. And you are certain you represent their views 7-Yee.

8374. How were you first appointed seven years ago? The Crown Agents advertisel for an engineer assistant in the Engineering" paper: I applied. at Mr. Wimperis and myself were selected as can- didates for the situation. I have a copy of the ad- vertisement here, if you desire to see it (lauding in the same).

3375. (Mr. Giihen.) Do it fix the rates of pay?— It does, and I think, it fixes the rates of pay for the class I represent of engineer assistants, and that is why I brought the copy of the advertisement with

me.

3370. (Chairman.) I think I had better read it: Copy advertisement inserted in Engineering,' the *Euginver" and the Daily Telegraph. The Crown Agents of the Colonies require immediately the ser- vices of an engineering the assistant who has re ceived a liberal education, and has also been trained as a civil or mechanical engineer; must have had both practical and office experience, age 25 to 30. commenc ing salary £250, and rising to £350, with prospect of substantial further promotion. Engagement on one year's probation; after that, if made permanent appointment, will carry pension. Apply by letter only, no special form, enclosing copies of testimonials but not originals, stating age and full particulars of education and experience to Crown Agents for the Colonies. Downing Street, S.W." You applied, and what happened then? You passed no examination, T suppose No.

3377. Were there many other applicants, do yon know? I have heard there were sone hundreds, but I cannot say definitely.

3378. You were selected?—Yes.

3370. On your testimonials and personal inter- views, I suppose). On proof of technical experience and qualifications.

3380. What had been your technical experience of that kind of work? Of course, I had had the usual apprenticeship as a youngster, and studied fairly harl, and got certain scholarships, exhibitions, anil that sort of thing. I had also had two years at the Royal College of Science, South Kensington. al passed examinations of the Institution of Civil Engi- neers, and also had been with a consulting engineer at Westminster engaged in varions undertakings for five or six years.

33-1. Which sort of undertakings 7-Principally gas and waterworks and general public works.

3389. (Mr. Gibson.) What are were you on appoint- tient' 27.

33-3 (hairman.) May your case be taken as typi cal. as far as you know, of the way these other gen- tlemen have been appointed, and the kind of training they have had? With regard to the kind of training. certainly. With regard to the appointment. I do not think the Crown Agents have since advertised any further appointment

284. What have they done? For the immediate cancies which occurred I think they wrote to one er two who were practically selected candidates when 1 was appointed, and later they applied to the Cam- bridge Univerzity Appointment Association, as I think

I think that has been

3385. (Sir Francis Muwatt) How many men have been appointed since your appointment?-I think it would be five, because three have left to take up more remunerative positions.

it is termed, for assistance. the general course,

3386. (Chairman.) Are you the head of a section ?— It is termed the C Section in the Works Department; they are simply denoted by letter.

3387. What sort of a section is that: what does it deal with ?--We go by Colonies in the Works Depart- ment, that is to say, each section has certain Colonies allotted to it, and they do all the work in connection with those Colonies.

3388. Which Colonies have you, for instance?- 1 start with Gibraltar. Malta, Cyprus, East Africa, Uganda, Hong Kong, Weihaiwei. the Fiji Islands, Falkland Islands, Trinidad, Gold Coast, Sierra Leone, and Newfoundland; there is rather a conglomeration

of them.

3389. It is rather a curious geographical distribu- tion which includes Fiji and Newfoundland and Hong Kong-In early days we started with the gen graphical distribtion, bat the work fluctuates so very much that from time to time one section has been relieved by passing Colonies over to another section. and vice versa, and it has rather done away with the geographical distribution

30. It is rather a patchwork geographical distri bution, if you had a map of the thing. I presume there would be people in A and B who would be in between you geographically, somewhere between Fiji and Newfoundland?-Certainly, and it depends upon which way you go round.

3301. (Mr. Gibson.) The practical arrangement is to divide the work more or less equally?—The sole object is to divide the work. If you take the Nigerias, for instance, five or six years ago the work was very small compared to what it is now, and that section has had to be materially relievel from time to time.

3302. (Chairman.) You say you have a staff there' -Yes, I have two fourth class clerks, and two boy copyists under me.

3393. In the Crown Agents' Offier-Yes.

3394. Will you tell us the kind of work it is: what falls to you each morning?-Of course, you have had evidence with regard to the general procedure of the office. I take it. An intent comes into the office inter the Registration Department, and then is passed through to W Departinent--the Works Department.

3395. Take a bridge, would there be such a thing as an indent for a bridge-Yes, very often, but rarely By simple. The first thing we have to do is to see that the whole of the information on the requisition is correctly enteri..

3396. (Mr. Bailey.) Entered where?-On the outside of the requisition cover. This information is enterel up by the Registration Department. but the Works Department, that is the technical assistant dealing with it, is responsible that it is correct, and that if it contains any special instructions they are noted on the outside of the mover. The next thing, if it is th case of a bridge for a railway, for instance, which is under the supervision of some consulting engineer, is that we have to refer it to him. If it is a question where there is no consulting engineer, we have to decide what steps should be taken, whether we should call for tenders or obtain estimates in the usual way. We have to decide whether the specification, if there is any, is sufficient. or whether other specifications should be issued with the temler, and generally t supervise the whole of the procedure from the wreipt of the intent until the work is shipped.

3307. (Sir Francis Mowatt) Do you ever advise the Crown Agents as to the possibility or desirability of the proposal in the interests of the Colung? With regard to expense we do.

3399. But not with regard to policy ?--It is very dif cult to lay down a hard and fast rule there, for ins simple reason that some Colonies prohibit, or practi- cally have no consulting engineer for certain works. If them is un consulting engineer the whole of the work is done in the office, either officially or unoffi cially, one way or another.

MINUTES OF EVIDENCE.

Mr. W. KuaṛT.

3309. (Chairman.) IIns Fiji got a consulting engi neer-There is no work going on in Fiji at present that has a consulting engineer. Consulting engineers act generally with regard to railway construction or important waterworks, or something of that sort, but for the smaller classes of work and for Public Works Tpartment supplies there is rarely a consulting engineer.

3100. (Sir Francis Mowatt.) With regard to a pro- posal, for instance, to put up a building in stone or in brick, would you call the attention of the Crown Agents to the fact that brick would not stand, or anything of that sort?-The Colonial Engineer or Director of Public Works indents on the Crown Agents for what he requires: he does not ask the Crown Agents, as a general rule, to express an opinion one way or another?

3101. That, practically, answers my question; you do not meddle with the policy; you only see that the particular work to be carried out is properly carried out?-But a goo many cases arise where they are smaller things, and it is very difficult to say that we do not interfere with the policy.

3402. I did not mean "interfere with the policy." but you do not advise upon the policy 7-We do ad- vise with regard to the policy, I should sny.

3403. (Chairman.) Can you tell us about the scale of salary. incremeni, and pension of yourself and the gentlemen you represent? You were appointed at a salary of £250?—Yes.

3404. On a written agreement?-On a letter; they wrote me a letter appointing me at the salary of £250 rising to £350, with prospect of substantial further promotion.

3405. (Mr. Gibson.) By regular increments?—They did not say regular increments or not, but when I called and interviewed the Crown Agents, they gave me to understand that the increments would be regular subject to good conduct,

3106. But they were not specified. £10. £15, or £20-I understood. I may have been mistaken, that they would be on a similar scale to the salaries in the Colonial Office.

3407. As a matter of fact, have your increments been regular?-The first three years I had increments of £10 and after that increments of £15.

3108. (Chairman.) Was the pension mentioned in your letter of appointment ?--Yes.

3109. Was it stated when it was to accrne ?-No, it simply stated that it was subject to pension and that the year's probation would be computed in the pension.

3410. At what period did you expect you would get the pension-Mr. Lloyd George's age of 70 or the ago of another witness much younger which we have hap pened to hear about; did you ask?-No, I am afraid young people do not always ask all the particulars they ought to do, but I thought it would probably be

05.

3411. You anticipated it would be on the Civil Service basis?—Yes.

3112. (Sir Francis Mowatt.) As a matter of fact. did you ever find a young man entering the Servico really interested in the details of a pension scheme? -I am afraid not.

3413. (Chairman) Perhaps you could tell us if you an typical in this respect with the others you repre sent that they have received similar salaries and similar increments as far as you know?-I think so.

3414. Broadly speaking, are they satisfied with their position 7-As regards the immediate present, yes; but, with regard to the future, my third sugges- tion to the Committee clearly indicates that we are not satisfied.

3415.That, in view of the scales of remuneration and the probabilities of promotion enjoyed by engi- neers and other technical officers in the Government Departments generally, the maximum salary of £350 per annum of the Engineering Assistants, heads of sections in Engineering and Works Departments should be materially raised"; you think that the sala- ries should b. raised ?—The maximum.

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21 July 190A,

3116. Because, in your view, your salaries compare unfavourably with those in Government Departments? --Yes.

3417. (Mr. Leathes.) What Government Depart- ments are you thinking of?-The whole of the Govern ment Departments who employ technical assistance in any form.

3118. The Post Office, the Admiralty, and the Office of Works?---Yes. and the Home Office, the Factory Inspectors Department, and the Examiners in the Patent Office.

3119. (Mr. Gibson.) In the advertisement substan- tial chances of advancement were talked about?--Yes.

3420. What do those consist of so far as you can seo from the present organisation of your office 7-At pre- sent there are five engineering assistants at £250 to £350, and one senior appointment which at present is at the maximum of £500.

3121. 1s that the deputy head of the Works Depart- ment. Mr. Lancaster 7-Yes.

3422. (Mr. Bailey.) Are you forbidden any chance of promotion to Major Carmichael's post or to Mr. Heath's post-It is difficult to state, but on the last two occasions when Major Carmichael's post has been vacant a person from outside the office has been appointed to it.

3423. (Mr. Gibson.) Are you interchangeable with the Inspection Department?-No, we Art a distinct department.

34234, The Engineering Inspection Branch is entirely distinct from yours? Yes, and that would not be open to us.

3424. (Mr. Bailey.) Are the qualifications for the two appointments much the saine? Had Mr. Wim- peris, for instance, who was appointed with you, dif- ferent qualifications from yours 7--No, but the Inspec- tion Department has only been formed three or four years, and Mr. Wimperis desired to go into that branch of the work, so he left the Works Department pure and simple and became a member of the insper- tion staff.

3425. They had to transfer a number of your class from the Works Department to the Inspection Depart ment --Hardly that. They formed the Inspection Department from the staff generally. You see it was - a completely new thing.

3426. (Mr. Gibson.) Assuming that the post of as-is- tant in the Engineering Inspection Branch was open to you, that would afford a chance of an increase of pay because they are upon a higher scale-We can not assume that that would be open to us, because they have their own juniors; there is the chief inspecting engineer and his two deputies, and there is a large staff outside the office who are not on the office staff but presumably if a vacancy occurred they would consider those men to a certain extent.

3427. You imagine that you are limited to the two promotions possible, the head of the Works Depart- ment and the deputy head; those are the only two open to you?—Yes.

3428. And the only one that has been filled from your ranks is that of the deputy head 7-Yes.

3499), (Chairman.) You wish us to understand in considering the first points you raise that by com- parison with certain Government officials the pay is not so satisfactory, and with regard to your chance of promotion being less, you wish to put it before the Committee that that is the reason for an increase of salary --- Yes. I have particulars here taken from the Admiralty Works Department: there is one assistant engineer going froin £200 to £300. and two civil engineers going from £300 to £550.

*3430. We have the particulars of some others as well? Then there is the Works Department, the Output Department, where there are 18 civil engineers from £200 to £300, and 31 civil engineers from £800 to £550. There is an obvious probability there of the men going up.

3431. (Mr. Gibson.) Do you suggest that there should be two grades, or simply an increase of pay to a higher maximum ?-An increase a higher maximuni, I think.

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