CO885-(18-19) — Page 764

יין זורו

PUBLIC RECORD OFFICE

Reference -

C.O.885

19 PUBLIC RECORD OFFICE, LONDON

ALLY WITHOUT PERMISSION OF THE BE REPRODUCED PHOTOGRAPHIC-

COPYRIGHT PHOTOGRAPH-NOT TO

142

21 July 1908.]

3290. Without explanation.

CROWN AGENTS' ENQUIRY COMMITTEE:

Mr. HARRY MARTIN.

any explanation? Without any

cun-

3201. Did none of the clerks thereupon enquire why the reduction had been made?-That started a siderable agitation. I believe; which culminated in the Inquiry which was held some years back.

3292. (Chairman.) About how long ago. two or three years ago?—Yes.

3293. A committee from inside the office was ap pointed to investigate this matter that Sir Francis Mowatt has been asking you about ?—Yes.

3094. (Fir Francis Mowatt.) When you say appointed, you mean amongst yourselves 7-Yes, the heads of departments.

3295. (Chairman.) It was a committee From inside the Crown Agents' tffice entirely ?—Yes,

3296. (Mr. Bailey.) Not appointed by the Crown Agents themselves?-Partly, and partly by the staff.

3207. (Mr. Harris.) They obtained the approval of the Crown Agents to do it - Yes, except the fourth class. I do not think the fourth class” elveted any- body.

3298. (chairman.) 1 do not quite understand what sort of a committee it would be; it would not be so much a committee as a public meeting if you your- selves met to consider your own grievances. Who was this committee composed of?-Mr. Antrobus, the chief clerk; Major Carmichael, Mr. Dunn, Mr. Ward, and Mr. Willis.

3200. What were they to inquire into?—Simply into the grievances,

3300. The grievances of the fourth class?—The 'whole office.

3301. (Mr. Harris.) Who started the grievances?— I should not like to say.

3:402. (Mr. Louthes.) In which class were they most felt I do not think it could have been the fourth class

3303. (Sir Francis Moratt.) The result of this inquiry, or memorandum, or report, or whatever you call it was that you never had any explanation why you had your increments relucel, and you knew no inore about it than you did before 1-That is su

3301. (Chairman.) To conclude this part of it, you say that your 65 friends are unanimous in wishing for some fixed scale, both of salaries and increments? Yes, and for it to be made retrospective, of course, from the date of appointment.

3305. It rather depends on what rate of salary it was, whether you would be unanimous about that?— Yes, the trouble is that new men are being commenced

at £70.

3306. This memorandum that you saw when you joined said that if you had not passed the Second Division examination, which I presume you have not, it would be fixed on each occasion as the merits of the case required? Yes.

3307. Everybody's merit is in practice the same in each year; is that so?-They all start at the same salary?—For the time being, yes,

3308. (Sir Francis Mowatt.) Always excepting Mr. Reid? That is only a question of increment; he started at a low salary.

3300. (Mr. Gibson.) What is the point of this in your suggestion, “that all new appointments to the class should be made at the minimum salary "?--To exclude the possibility of one man being brought in from outside and given a senior position in the list to those who have been in the office for some time.

+

3310. Is there any particular case of that sort? Have you referred to any particular case of that sort ? --I have not done so.

3311. Are there any individuals in this fourth class who have been brought in at special rates of pay ?-- There may be two brought in at the beginning when the class was first formed.

3312. I gathered that this gentleman, Mr. Reid. who was brought in under a written agreement, was rvally brought in at a lower rate?—No.

3313. (Chairman.) He was at the same commencing salary, but with a higher rate of increment? Yes.

3314. (Mr. Gibson.) Was he brought in at £507- Yes, at the time the commencing salary was £60,

3315, (Mr. Bailey.) But he had a greater rate of increment-Yes.

3316. (Chairman.) You say “that promotion has been discouragingly slow, only one advancement to the third class having so far been made. Members feel strongly that all vacancies in the third class should (technical staff excepted) be filled from the fourth class, and that in the meantime there should be some further incres ment as reward for markeð ability," About promo- tion, you say that members feel strongly that all pr motions to the third class should be from the fourth!

Yes.

3317. Are you convinced that that would be fair and would work well-1 think so.

3318. (Mr. Bailey.) Do you contemplate that they should have any right beyond the third class, that is. that they should have the right to go up to the top of the staff-It ought to be possible; there ought to be an opening so that it should be possible for men to

go up.

3319. Do you regard it that you should have a free run up to the top of the third class, and thereafter to be eligible for. but without any actual right to promo tion? I do not quite understand.

3320. In the case of the Second Division (which, I think, will be the best illustration), the Second Divi sion clerk has practically the right to go up to £300 a year, and anything beyond that is dependent upon his ability, should vacancies occur?--Yes.

3321. Do you desire some such extension in the case of your own class; that your run, as it were, should not be restricted to the fourth class, but that you should have a run up to the top of the third?— That is exactly the case.

$22. (Mr. Gibson.) If you got into the third you would expect to run up to the second and the first; you do not propose to have a bar at the third class, For instance, you consider that the heads of depart ments should also be filled from class III. Is not that so? Yes, of course that is rather a long way ahead for us to look.

3323, (Chairman.) But you think that every clerk should carry a Crown Agent's bâton in his knapsack, so to speak?—Not necessarily.

3321. It should be possible for them to rise to the top? Yes.

3325. You say that in the meantime there should be some further increment as a reward for markel ability. What do you mean by some further incre ment, because the amount of increment is not fixed? --We have previously asked for fixed increments.

3428. Supposing that were settled, you want an arrangement by which exceptional persons shoubl receive additional increments 7-Yes.

3327. Are you unanimous upon that?-Oh, yes. 3328, (Mr. Gibson,) Do you think that some such xystem as is in force in the Second Division should be followed, that after the clerks get to a certain scale of pay the increment should be higher, and also that there should be special opportunities of rewarding special merit by giving exceptional increments?-- Yes,

3329, (Chairman.) You say, "With regard to the concluding paragraph of the minute relating to the supplementary clerks, class IV., it is hoped that the Crown Agents will shortly be able to announce a scheme under which married members will be brought into the office insurance system." Will you tell us about that? What is the rule now 1--There is no rule. but it is simply this—that in the minute under which the fourth class was created we were told that the Crown Agents hopest eventually to include us in the office insurance system.

3330. At present is there any insurance system for you? No.

3:31. (Mr. Leathes.) How do you understand that expression that you will be eligible for a pension? Do you understand that the Crown Agents shall have it entirely at their arbitrament or discretion whether

MINUTES OF EVIDENCE.

Mr. HARRY MARTIN.

they give you a pension or not?—I think we take it more or less for granted that we shall have a pension. 3332. That is how you understol it, but it is not quite free from ambiguity, is it!--No.

3333. (Chairman.) Are any of you under this insur- auce scheme -None of us.

1. Have many of you got married lately?—I think some half a dozen are married.

3335. Are you? --No.

336. In point of fact, the six who have been mar- red have not come under this scheme - No.

3337. And nothing has been invested for their wives and families?—No.

3338. So that you wish that pro post futurum pro- ise to become a reality?Yes.

3339. Then you say that the minute relating to supplementary clerks, class IV., should be amended on the basis of these views. What minute is that?- The one which has just been read by the Secretary.

3340. (Mr. Bailey.) How far down the establish- ment are men allowed to join the insurance scheme? Are third class clerks ineludel? Yes.

3341. (Chairman.) We have taken you through your pricis, and you have told us a great deal we wanted to know, but is there anything which occurs to you that you would like to tell the Committee on behalf of your friends which you have not said There is one thing. I shouhl like to point to the work we do in the office. I will start off with my own department. I think you have been given figures showing the value of the stones we ship annually. Fourth class clerks almost alone are responsible for the correctness of the con- tractors invoices.

3343. (Mr. Bailey.) What are the contractors' in- vuices exactly -Invoices for all the stores which we buy.

3319. And do you go through those and check them nem by item to see that the contractors have all the stores entered on the invoices?—Yes, we check the in- voice against the contract.

3341. (Chairman.) Will you please go on?-For in- stance, a man might get an invoice for £15,000 worth of steel rails for railway construction. He would check that against the contract, and it would ultimately be passes to the pay office, and the payment would bo

made on his initial.

3345. On this young fourth class man's initial the payment would be made?-Yes.

3348. (fr. Bailey.) Would it go through the head of the section before it got to the pay office?-Yes, but simply to ensure that each document is properly initialled.

3347. Does it go directly from the fourth class clerk to the head of the section?--Yes.

3348. (Chairman.) Will you please continue?-We do not object to that kind of work in any way, but we think that should be taken into consideration in directing the scale of payment for our services.

3340. Your point is that it is highly responsible work, and it should be taken into consideration ?- It is responsible work at least.

3350. (Sir Francis Mowatt.) I do not know whether you recognise that you are now on the scale of the Second Division in the Civil Service, and, of course. all work of that sort falls well within the scope of the Second Division ?--I was unaware of that.

3351. (Mr. Gibson.) 1 suppose you rather use it as au argument for putting you on the establishment, that it is work which should be performed by an established officer?—Yes.

143

[21 July 1908.

3352. (Sir Francis Mowatt.) Just let me read you this sentence in the memorandum you have had an opportunity of reading: "The commencing salary of the class will in the case of those who have passed the Second Division examination be not less than £70 a year, and the annual increments will, subject to good behaviour, be not less favourable than those obtainable in the Second Division. The salaries of the clerks appointed to the class, who have not passed the Second Division examination, will be fixed on each occasion as the merits of the case may require. Clerks in the supplementary class will be eligible for promotion to the higher classes of the office establish- inent, and when so promoted will go into the higher class at a nut less salary than they may at the time be receiving. Promotion to the higher classes will, however, depend solely on ability and merit." There fore this contemplates that your class, as I under- stand it, will be practically identical in its work with the Second Division ?—Yes.

3353. (Chairman.) How many, in point of fact, have passed the Second Division examination ?—Only

one.

1

3354. (Sir Francis Mowatt.) Was he the one who was promoted-No.

3355. (Mr. Irathes.) You mean that none of those people have qualified for the Second Division?—Yes. 3356. We understood in evidence that the rule of the office was that these boys should be expected to pass the Necond Division examination; was that a mistako-None of them has passed the Second Division examination.

3357. You say "passed," but I meant qualified?— Or even qualified.

3358. (Mr. Gibson.) There is just one point with regard to these appointments to the third class which appears to have been to the detriment of the fourth class. Looking again to the appointments to the third class, which have been made direct from outside since the introduction of the fourth class, I notice there are very few who have been appointed since 1901, which is the earliest date of appointment to the third class is not that so?—Yes.

3359. I take it that there have been two appoint- ments, one in 1903 and one in 1903, from outside, and those are the only two. I think?—Yes, Messrs. Davis and Dalton.

3360. Do you know where Mr. Davis and where Mr. Dalton came from-where they were obtained?- No, I have no idea.

3361. Whether they were by nomination or through the Civil Service Commissioners ?--I never under- stood they came from the Civil Service Commissioners. 3302. Who is the gentleman who was promoted from the fourth class?-Mr. Rowe.

3363. (Mr. Bailey.) Do you understand that if you qualify by passing the Second Division examination you will thereby increase your chances of promotion?

Not necessarily; I do not understand that. 3364. (Chairman.) Had not this one man who was promoted passed this examination ?—No.

3365. (Mr. Gibson.) If you passed the Second Division examination, would you stay in the Crown Agents' Office? Supposing in the last eight years you had gone up for the Second Division and been suc- cessful, you would then go up not with the idea of staying in the Crown Agents' Office but with the idea of going into a Government office?-Uh, yes.

3366. (Chairman.) There is no good passing the Second Division examination when you have once got started in the fourth class; is that what you under- stand 7-That is so.

The witness withdrew.