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PUBLIC RECORD OFFICE, LONDON

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17 August 1909

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His Excellency Sir BoYLE, KOM »

ment was replacing fast enough the trees that had been cut down and removed, as if the head of the depart ment could guarantee that the trees which were planted would grow immediately int tress to take the place of those which were dead and dying?--Large clearings were authorises in the Kanaka Forest, and I was under the impression that the director had succeeded in re placing the trees which had been cut down

17,661 In the Kanaka Forest that is so, but in the neighboring forest? This refers to Lapipe?

Coutanceau, which marches 17,662 No, Kanaka Yee, I believe that was postponed

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17 663 (Mr Woodcock.) But even further than the churman has put it, there are setually trees that are down, that are lying all over the place hurting the other trees uml so on, which we understood he was not allowed to remove? What is the reason given for not allowing them to be removed P

17,664 (Chairman) Simply that the hard do not wish the forest to be disturbed. There is another reason which may not have come to your knowledge, but it is not put forward as influencing the board an much to-day as it did a few years ago, because the constitution of the board to-day, at any rate, as regards it chairman, I believe, is different to what it was a short time ago

That is so. 17.665. But there is a

very strong influence in Mauritius in favour of deer shooting, and, apparently. amongst the people who are fond of that sport, there is a strong feeling that to disturb the forests by cutting down and removing the trees means to disturb the deer. and, as I understand that the whole of the Government forests are let out to various people for the sporting rights, these people who hold the sporting rights wish the forests to be left exactly as they are, and that they should not be interfered with at all, that they are not to be treated as an economic property belonging to the Government, and that the whole influence of all those people is against the Forest Officer in any efforts he may make to improve the economic value of the Government forests - fancy in their leases there is no such condition of freedom from disturbance.

17.666 No. there is no such condition, but the influence, you see, is there and, of course, if the board can control the head of the department and the hoard perhaps being composed almost entirely of gentlemen who are interested in the sport and their many friends, then the Forest Officer is alone gainst them all. If there was no board he would develop the forests as he thought beat; as it is, his hands are tied

17.067 M Woodcock.) Perhaps that influence, if it exists, has not been brought to your notice - No, I do not think it has been brought to my notice. The head of the Forest Department, as far as the Government is concerned, has always had a free hand we have always listened to his representations. As regards stopping the clearing work which was done affee. tively. I think in the Kanaka Forest, I cannot call to mind exactly what reasons were given to me for not going on with it elsewhere, but, as far as I recollect, the board were against it, as you say.

17.66M. (Chairman.) If you will allow me to say so, I think it would be highly desirable that somebody should see the Director of Forests and either stiffen him or remove this influence somehow, because certainly he understands that he is bound, in these respects which I have spoken of, by the board, and the board will not let him deal with the matter. There is the forest of Coutanceau, and he is not allowed to remove s single bit of timber in it ?—I cannot recollect that Coutanceau has ever been brought to my notice; Lapipe www the one I thought of

17,689, Coutanceau and Kanaka march together; it in simply that there is a little bit of a path cut between the two they are one forest.

17,070. (Mr. Woodcock.) There is another matter with regard to the forest which struck me, and, I think, struck the Chairman too. There appears to be quite a good sawmill there, which, we understand, is the property of a private Him in Port Louis, Messrs. Blyth Brothers In your view, is it desirable that a private Arm should have the wood cutting in State forente;

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it seems to me to be open to so many objections – There must have been some reason for their having been allowed to set up a saw-mill in a Government forest, probably the Government could not, at the time that the saw-mill was set up, work it themselves I think it would be infinitely proferable that the Government if it can, should carry out those transactions.

17,671 I think you would probably be of that opinion-Yes, I am. but I fancy it must have been set up for some good reason.

17,672, (Chairman.) I meant to have mentioned that. I think I should explain that I understand a contractor was allowed to put up that saw-mill, ani for a very long time he did very good work cutting up Government timber, out of which the Government obtained a considerable revenue, and then, for some reason or other, he was indebted to Messrs. Blyth Brothers and they seized the whole plant and it has now become theirs, and for something like 18 months or 2 years it has never done a stroke of work; the contractor has disappeared, the saw-mill is there in the middle of the Government forest and it is doing nothing at all. Naturally the Director of Foresta would like to see that saw-mill the property of the Government and under his control, because there it is in the forest; it is no particular use to anybody at all, and his work, of course, is entirely stopped ---1 must inquire into that. It is not in my mind that he has brought it to my notice. I knew, however, of the contract. I fancy that it was given out to contract because the Government could not take up the business, but I was not aware that it had been seized by Mesars. Blyth Brothers.

17,673. Then the contract came to an end, and the Bawmill has now ceused to be the property of a contractor, and is the property of Messrs. Blyth Brothers, and I think we were told that they wished to remove it, but they had consented to leave it there for a little while to see whether the Government would be inclined to acquire it-and it seems to have been quite a profitable venture-and if it could be got at a reasonable sum, it looks as if it would be advan- tageous ?-I am not aware that the Director of Forests has brought that to my notice, but I will inquire inte the matter at once.

17,874. You know what a large sum of money is spent on poor relief here, and we have examined the Poor Law authority, and heard a good deal of evidence about it. Would it, in your opinion, be a good thing or not, instead of the Government giving a large annual vote and placing it under the control of the Poor Law authority, to dispense it as he thinks best. to divide that money, giving aums for each district and for Port Louis, and creating in each district a very small poor law board, which would distribute within their own districts the sum allotted to their district. and perhaps in Port Louis, allowing the municipality or some other authority to dispense it there, and so getting rid of the Poor Law authority altogether?— That is a scheme which is open to a great many objections. I think, in Mauritius. I do not say they are final objections. You decentralise; you create a fresh system of boarda, you will give a considerable amount of spending power to those hoards, your means of supervision will be very difficult, and I do not see how you are to control the expenditure. The unrelieved pauper, or the discontented pauper, would come to Government for redress unless you gave very full powers to each board, and the Government relieved itself of all responsibility in the matter.

17,875. I think that would be the only plan, but it is suggested to us by the clergy and other people who are interested in charity that at present the Poor Law authority is centred in Port Louis; that he knows nothing, and can know nothing about the distant dis- tricts, and that the people in the distant places have got the greatest difficulty in getting relief, and that even very deserving cases indeed a long way from Port Louis get no consideration ?—He has his officer, or he is supposed to have his officer, in each district, who is responsible to him for part of the islanıð.

17.876. I think we were told by people who were really disinterested--they gave instances of people

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His Excellency Sir C BOYLE, K.C.M.G.

17 August 1909 ]

whom they had supported because they know the case H IN quite deserving-that they could get nothing out at the Poor Law authority at all? That must be the fault of the local man then, if the case was one for relief

17,677 But is not it all rather itn elaborate machinery for dispensing charity? It strikes me so Icause I have never heard of any other Government, any Colonial Government, which dispenses charity to the extent that is done here, and I have never heard of any officer who at all corresponds to the Poor Law authority; I mean you have a fairly highly paid officer and a considerable department also being paid by the Government, the whole of it being devoted to the distribution of charity. Would not it be more natural that that should be done gratuitously, and perhaps he even better done -You have got the denominational difficulty to consider.

It

17.678. Yes, but in the districts it surely would not be difficult to get people, and perhaps ladies and people of different denominations, to sit upon the Committee, and, of course, they would have to take the entire responsibility of the poor of their district. seems that the money which is now voted for that purpose is so much that it ought to be sufficient, and you would save the salaries of the Poor Law authority and all these officers of his P-If I thought that the necessary pour relief could be satisfactorily distributed by such means, I should say at once by all means aclopt it.

17,679. (Mr. Woodcock.) Have you any reasons for thinking it would not be?—I think it would be very difficult to create those boards to the satisfaction of those who should be relieved or want relief.

17,680. With a large number of private people serving on a committee of that sort, taking an interest in the poor, one would have thought they would have a better opportunity of sifting out the deserving cases than simply an officer who was paid by the Poor Law authority-They would have to have paid inquirera themselves.

I should have 17,681. I should have thought not. thought that they could have done it in very much the same way that it is done very largely in England.

17.682. (Chairman.) You can command the services of all the clergy here; they are all Government officers! -Quite so, but I do not know that I could command that they will work harmoniously.

17,693. No, but that is never to be commanded and very seldom to be arrived at ?-It is a scheme which will receive consideration, but at the first blush I think there are many difficulties in the way. That something should be done to reform the present system I do not deny.

17,684. (Mr. Woodcock.) Does the denominational feeling run so high here that you think it would offer a serious objection P-I think it would affect the scheme in this way: that whilst there might not be actually antagonism, it would be very difficult to get the members to meet together and to work together; they would have conflicting ideas, and probably the That is what I pauper would suffer in consequence.

am afraid of. I do not think that you would see any case perhaps of absolute trouble as between the various tuembers of the board, but at the same time I think you would have difficulties. That is what I am afraid of, and I should be very loath to adopt the course in the case of the municipality of Port Louis.

17,885. (Chairman.) Well, I suppose that you could have a committes in Port Louis with greater case than anywhere else P-I think that would be far easier. What I am so afraid of is that it would be very difficult for the district committees to meet; they would have to meet constantly, perhaps two or three times a week, and it would be very difficult in the outlying districts to get them together. Gratuitous distribution of relief to the poor is not always easy or successful.

17,686. But there are, nearly always, one or two pople who would do the real work P-I do not at all mean by my answer to say that the scheme should be tegatived at once, but I only wish to put before you the difficulties which 1 foresee.

17,687. What occurs to me is that in a case of this

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kind if relief is of absolute necessity, yun expert the person who wants the relief to go and nak for it; it ought not to be necessary to go all round the country to look in every hut to see whether there is somebody who wants help. That is the one thing where the people surely can be expected to come and ask for it themselves?—Yes, but then you would have to have your committee sitting to hear these people.

17,688. No, all the time the committee would have to have some clerk, I imagine, to pay the money out. to keep their accounts and so forth P-You would have to have a paid servant in each district. Is that paid servant to be a servant of the committee, or a servant of the Government

17,689. I think he would have to be a servant of the committee, and I think the committee would have to be entirely responsible and to relieve the Govern ment entirely with reference to the care of the poor, so far as the poor go.

17,690. (Sir Edward O'Malley.) To collect the money locally-A poor rate.

17.691. Yes, each district to be responsible for the poor rate

(Mr. Woodcock.) Assisted by a man from Goven. ment if it were absolutely necessary.

(Sir Edward O'Malley.) Quite independent, (Witness.) That means levying a poor rate, of course, which we have not got.

17,892. No, but you have got everything which belongs to a poor rate. It is a curious thing that in all these districte there is 1d. in the £ for education, and 2d. in the £ for something else, but here there is everything but a poor rate P--Of course, I have never yet seen here any local collecting institution; there is none; the Government has to do the whole of the collecting.

17,693. (Mr. Woodcock.) But how is that so with regard to the municipality -Yes, the municipality, is the only one. But we collect even a portion of the funds of the municipality.

17,694. (Chairman.) We were told of another one only this morning or last night, which is the Franchi Presbyterians, who appear to have a fund for relieving their own particular poor ?—The Reverend J. Forrester Anderson?

17,695. I do not know ?-I imagine that is the instance referred to, but I have discovered, since I have been here, that the Mauritius local authority will not collect revenue or accept such responsibility.

17,696. They regard the poor as a Government burden F-Yes, and they regard the duty of collection as a Government burden, leaving all such responsibility to the central authority. The municipality of Port Louis is the only one institution which does in part collect rates. The municipality of Curepipe, if I may so call it, the board of Curepipe, does not collect its rates at all.

17,697, No, but the Government subsidise these municipalities to the extent of about Rs. 80,000 a year. Is there any reason why they should not collect their own rates and Government be saved that Rs. 80,000 ? -None whatever, but they will not do it. They have never yet been persuaded to do it and it is very difficult to make them.

17,898. But the municipality of Port Louis has a very large revenue indeed, considering the kind of town; they have got a revenue of over half a million rupeos -A portion of which is collected by the Government.

17,699. (Mr. Woodcock.) Then you make them this grant of Rs. 80,000 ?—Yes, and as regards the Curepipe Board, I think we collect all the licences and all revenue for them.

17,700. (Chairman.) But we have thought that so many things are thrust upon the Government which are purely municipal works; I mean your Medical Department has to look after the cemeteries, for instance, and to look after the markets, things which are purely municipal work, and in all these places they have got municipal boards-at Curepipe, Beau-Baskin, and so on ?—I would gladly see decentralisation carried out to a large extent, if they would not coms to the head centre with every sort of complaint. If we could

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