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PUBLIC RECORD OFFICE

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C.O. 882

PUBLIC RECORD OFFICE, LONDON ALLY WITHOUT PERMISSION OF THE BE REPRODUCED PHOTOGRAPHIC- COPYRIGHT PHOTOGRAPH-NOT TO

TIMI

17 August Prog

MAURITIUS ROYAL COMMISSION, 1909

His Excellency Sat CHOYLE, KOMA

get the district boards to do all that sort of work, I would far somer leave it to them than that the feverumet, should bear the obligation of doing »

17.71 But they have all paid officers, every fe of them --Yes, but the money is either collected and giver to them, or collected by the Government

17,702 Yea, but those very officers who collect the money ought to spend it -1'ndoubtedly, but whether they would in this particular instance I do not know, that is the difficulty

17,500 I cannot quite remember whether I asked was necessary to you before if you believed that it immediately raise money to put the rúlway in order?-- I think that that is very necessary, yes.

17.704. You think that it is necessary to raise money

to put the railway in order?--Yes, at once

17,705. And do you think that it can only be done. short by means of a loan - Even if only by means of loan. I think it would preferable, because I think that the necessities of the railway are a crying that a considerable expenditure must take place very shortly I think it is 149,000 or 110,000, which should be spent directly

17,78. I meant to ask yon-I do not think I did before you remember that Despatch of Mr. Lyttelton's? I do

17.707 In which he said that whenever there was a vacant office it must not be filled, that economies should be made. Can you tell us whether a copy of that despatch was sent to the head of every depart ment with instructions to act upon it-The necessary The despatch instructions were certainly sent out. was published, either every head of a department had it or instructions were sent on it. It is possible that a full absolute copy of the despatch was not sent to each department.

17.708. I do not think we have found any head of a department who has admitted that he received instructions to act on the terms of that despatch. I think we have asked almost all of them with regard to it-They have had instructions repeatedly. Besides it was their bounden duty to take notice of that despatch, inasmuch as it was published.

Almost every head of the principal departments is a member of the Council of Government.

17.709. Could you tell us how it came about that the newspapers here do not pay any postage ?—I cannot tell you how it came about; I can tell you that it has frequently been discussed that they should pay the postage, but the concession having been granted, it was decided that it was better it should not be taken away.

17,710, ls that your opinion ?-No, I do not ace I do not know why the papers should be sent free

that very much revenue would come from it if they were made to pay. When we discussed the matter it was decided that the revenue would be comparatively small, inasmuch as a large amount would not be sent by post in consexquence.

17.711. We were told that if they went by post the revenue would be about Rs. 10,000 per annum ?—I know it has been calculated so. The answer was at once given that the larger number would be sold in Port Louis and would be issued privately.

17.712. Do not you think it might be worth while to try it I do not think there is any reason against the experiment

17,718. Have you ever thought of whether the Rector of the Royal College might not also be combined with the post of Director. I believe the post of the Rector is vacant P-- Yes, it in vacant.

17.714. Have you ever thought whether it would he possible to combine those two posts?-1 have thought of it, and I think that it might be so, but the post of Director was created in connection with the reorganisation of the department with all the new duties which were assigned to that post, and it was very early in the day to disturb that arrangement before. That is the reason why I have not done so.

17.715. But what do you say now I think if both posts were vacant, it might be well worth considering and the amalgamation might be made.

17.716. (Bir Edward O'Malley.) I only want to unk

you one or two questions

Contened

With regard to the railw...5.

may I take it that your opinion is founded upon this reports of the experts—Yes.

17.717. You have confidence in Mr Pitot as the head of the department in his report, and you have received Mours Hawkshaw's Report and another one of Sir David Hunter's - You

17.71 And it in that thuit you be your opimon ?— Undoubtedly

17.719 There are no extraneous facts within your knowledge pointing to the necessity? -Before I got Sir David Hunter out here, there were constant com. It was plaints as to the inefficiency of the railway not sufficiently equipped with rolling stock. its perman nent way, such as it was, was very good, but it needed. renewals, for which nobody was responsible except Ulut we lacked means, and, moreover, the bridges, especially the main bridge over the Grand River, were believed to be in, not a dangerous condition, but in an unsatin- factory condition. Under those circumstances I thought it best to get the best advice we could possibly Inve We had Sir David Hunter here, and he issued the report which you have seen. and the railway experts also reported We had a member of their staff, who was sent out, and he advised on the question. All these things tend to make me think that money should be apent on the railway at once.

17,720. Have you formed any opinion as to whether it is necessary to spend the whole amonnt at once ?- 1 do not think it is. The reports agree that it is not necessary to spend the whole amount at once, but I think that that sum which I mentioned-I think Mr. Pitot put it at 120,000, but I think the other reports put it at 109,000 or 110,0001-is needed almost at once; I mean within the next year or so As I have told you. I have been very anxious over the delay which has occurred, and I think that the Govern ment incura grave responsibility, if there was accident on one of the bridges, it would be a very serious thing.

17,721. Then 1 was going to ask you a question about the Executive Council. We were told by Mr Leclézio that he conceived that his position in the Executive Council did not, in any way, bind him to support Government measures-He has always maintained that position.

17.722. He said that some representation had been male to him by Sir Charles Bruce, but there is nothing about it the Constitution that I can find - Nothing whatever

17,723. Nor in any instructions from the Secretary of State. There is something with regard to every class of officials and non-officials as to their vote in the Council, but there is nothing that touches the position of these members in Executive Council ?—The rule which I have always followed with regard to mutters which would have to go through the Executive Council to the Legislative Council, is that I have always endeavoured to obtain the support of my two unofficial advisers in the Executive Council, and, as a rule, I have got it, or else they have said plainly in the Executive Council. I am against it," but in no instance do I know of an Executive Councillor who has acquiesced. in a measure and opposed it afterwards in the Legisla. tive Council, though, of course, it frequently happens that an Executive Councillor will say that he is opposed to such and such a measure, and intends to fight it in the Council of Government.

17.724. Then the evils which have been suggested by a good many witnesses na attending the elective system which you have spoken of, the evil of an elected member inaking his interest either in the Council or out of the Council for members of his constituency-- for members of the Civil Service-would not that be very much reduced if you had an assured majority as in the Executive Council P-Surely, but it must be a substantial majority.

17,725. I mean a real majority P-A weak majority, I think, would be worse than the present position. 17.728. Why? I mean such a majority an Letters Patent give.

the

17.727. That in a bare majority, but may a majority What I am of two or three or something of that sort.

17 August 1909]

MINUTES OF EVIDENCE.

His Excellency Sir C. BOYLE, KỌC M.G.

Thinking of is this, that, not at all taking the members f the present Council, but merely as a Council there -hould be a permanent mechanical Government majority. which could be relied on for any measure on which the Government had made up its mind? I think it would reduce the difficulties generally, and reduce the difficulties which you have just mentioned-there is no Joubt about that.

17,728. If that were done you would still have to face the elected members, making interests for their Constituents by speeches und by threats and so on in the Council of Government ?—Yes.

17,729. But you would be in a position to meet them without negotiation P-We should be in a better position; there is no doubt, however, that if they chose to obstruct. they could do so.

17.730. They could obstruct, of course, but they could not defeat ?-Not as it is possible for them to do now, I do not say that they do do it.

17.731. So that is one way of diminishing the difficulties of the present position P-Yes.

17,732. The other point I wanted to ask you a question about is. At present we are told that there are mething like 20 per cent. of the constituents who are Indians, and that those Indians have been made use of for electioneering purposes, and that all sorts of Do you see any treasonable talk has been indulged in.

way of meeting that difficulty, because, as long as there are electors one cannot but expect something of the sort-I think that if we could get one or two re presentatives of the Indian community in the Council. it would be of great advantage.

17,733. You mean to say men who would properly represent them without being representatives in the strict sense of the word-not elected members P-I think it would be preferable to have nominated members if we rould get them.

17,734. If you could get nominated members, would you limit the franchise so as not to include Indians ?— I would not extend it.

17.735. What people seem to be afraid of-and I can quite understand it is, they say this is a Crown Colony purposely because there is an overwhelming majority of Indians. The effort of some party here seems to be to bring the Indian into representation until it comes to be a system representing Indians, and you want to stop that, and it seems to me that you inust-I do not see why the Indian, if he is an lucated Indian, should not have his vote as well as anybody else. If he is an educated man, and can understand the value of his vote, it would be all right, but whilst he does not understand that, I think it is a very pernicious system for them to be got hold of in this way.

17.736. Then if you had, say, two nominated members or one member to represent--P-I have been trying for the five years that I have been here to find them and it is very difficult. The Indians will not combine. I asked a good many representative Indiane, as I told you, whether they would mention a name to me and I would at once give it consideration, but I have, as yet, failed to find one.

17.737. He need not be an Indian necessarily P-I think it would be preferable if he were.

17,738. The Protector of Immigrants is an official member, is he not ?-Yes.

17,799. But yours is a large Executive Council ?——— Seven,

L

17,740. They are all Mauritiana P-No. There is the General Officer Commanding the troops, the Colonial Becretary, the Receiver General, the Auditor General, the Procureur General and two unofficial members, making seven.

17,741. There are only three Mauritians P-The Procureur General is a Mauritian and the two unofficial members are Mauritians.

17,742. That is all P-Yes, that is all at present. Of course it may happen that the Auditor General or the Receiver General may be a Mauritian; it so happens at the present moment that they are not. May I say with regard to the point which I think came up on the last occasion na to the question of the unofficial members being on a Council, were such a change of Constitution

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[Continued.

made as you have indicated, there would be no neces-uty then for unofficial members to be on the Executive Council; the sole reason for the unofficial members, us far as I am concerned, being on the Executive Conncil is that it gives a better chance to the Administration of having a majority in the Legislative Council.

17,743. (Mr. Woodcock.) Do you consider that the matter of the Civil Servants and the representative members, which the Chairman has dealt with, amounts to such a grievance, such a difficulty, that you would be in favour of, in any way, doing away with the representa tive system or qualifying it ?—No, I do not think it is carried to that extent. I think this: that it is very bad for the Civil Servant, the young Mauritian Civil Servant, to think that he can go to his member or any member of any district and get redress for any grievance which he thinks he has, either against the bead of his department, or against the central Administration. think that that is bad for the employee and for the Government, but I do not think that it is such a crying evil that it would necessitate drastic remedies of the description which you mention.

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17,744. (Sir Edward O'Malley.) May I ask one more question. I asked one witness, a very intelligent man. one of the best of the witnesses that I think we heard, what was the object of the Council of Government; could not they do without it P and his answer was: "Oh,

"no, it is necessary to have a Connoil to take part in the "administration. Do not you think it might be well if the name of the Council was changed and it was called a Legislative Council instead of a Council of Government-Certainly.

17,745. A French Colony with French traditions-I mean to say administration P—I think the present name is a mistake.

17,746, (Mr. Woodcock.) Just to finish with the question of the franchise, as far as I am concerned. With regard to the Indians, they are required now to fill in their own qualifications on their paper, but apparently they can do that in their own language. Do you think that it would be well to require that they should have to do that either in English or in French? -I think that would limit the electorate considerably. I suppose at the present moment they do not really do it themselves.

17,747. It is required by law that they should do it, themselves P--Yes, that they should do it in the presence of the returning officer.

17,748. Or in the presence of the magistrate who qualifies them. I forget for the moment, but I have read the Ordinance P--It has to be done in the presence of the polling officer, but in their own language.

17,749. Yes, I am asking whether it would be better to require that to be done in French or in English; that would very much limit the franchise P-Consider- ably,

17,750. Would you be in favour of that?-No, I do not think so.

17,751. I notice that there are a number of different franchise qualifications; for example, the emolumente of a man's office, and so on. Would you be in favour of simplifying the franchise by making it simply a house. hold franchise or land franchise -That would have the effect of striking off the electoral roll a large number of individuals who are neither householders nor landholders.

17,752. It would have the effect of striking off a large number of the younger Civil Servants ?—Yes.

17,753. Would that be a good thing, do you think? ---It is hard to say what the effect would be.

(Chairman.) But would not it put on to the franchise an enormous number of illiterate people who are now householders, but who have no other qualification?

(Mr. Woodcock.) I think that is a qualification, is it not? I was saking the Governor whether be thought that would be a good thing.

(Chairman.) I think there are only 6,300 electors in the whole island. I should have thought there were more householders than that.

(Witness.) I do not mean this as the answer you are seeking, but if you limit your qualification to land possession or house possession entirely, you would

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