CO882-(8-9) — Page 376

PUBLIC RECORD OFFICE

Reference :-

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6T

C.O. 882

1906

15 Aug 199

MAURICES ROYAL AMMISSION. 190k

His Excellency Sir C

BOYLF, KCMG

that the small planters were taking advantage of the Palsy and the low rate of vane freight to send the who their canes out of the Black River District to these distant places Now the obvious result of that must be that those two remaining mills will have to Well will not it be a very unfortunate things that the whide of that district should then be deprived atterly of any factory at all -- I think

176g3 You New ww there is an instance where possibly it might be of public advantage to give some Help Ethitak su

17921 As far as one can see if things take their course, the end of this will be that those mills will If the railway charges the rates that it has got ༄། i』a a right to charge, the small planters having no bal all left to them, entirely through their own fault, because they will not send their canes and accept the lower price which they can get there, also will be driven ut, and there will be nothing left in the Black River District at all? It is very possible with all the mills Ike that There is a very significant instance, that from recent returns which I have had from the railway. I find that those canes to which has coms lefore me you refer have paid a comparatively large sum for freight, not a rate, but a large sum for their delivery

er the railway 1 am met at all sure that it has pand the small planters to send them at such cost

17.625 No, but eonomically it seems so absolutely wing of a man who has got a mill at his door to refuse to send his canes there, because it will pay him better to sell his canes to the other side of the island. The man whows a mill is labouring under difficulties so much now that he cannot pay these men so much as a man who has got a huge mill with more power, to whom the larger number of tons of cines, of course. even at a very small profit, will help him, whereas the other man with a mill that is not nearly so up to date. and labouring under difficulties cannot afford to pay such a good price for canes?—There is no doubt that the Black River District needs a large central factory. and were there a large central factory there, the district would grow more canes.

17,62 But only if a factory were prepared to give the small planter the price which he demands for his

The small plauter does not appear to realise that if you go into a poor district like the Black River District, you cannot expect to get the same price for your canes as you do if you are in a good district like Savanne and Flacq - I think in this instance the small plinter has been very ill-advised, because he has paid inore in freight than he would get in the extra price given by the Pamplemousses man or the Moka man. From the figures which were given me by the general I have manager of the railway, it appears to be so. ascertained that in consequence of inquiry which I male on receipt of a communication which reached me on the subject of railway rates for the cane traffic.

17.627. (Mr Woodcock.) The small planter, I was told, was commonly paid by a certain amount of sugar in return for his canes, and he must be in a position to calculate it nicely?-Quite so.

17.628. (Chairman.) Also, of course, the bigger mill, the newer mill, will get a better extraction ont I am of its canes than the old one -That is 80. afraid both of those tuills in the Bluk Hiver District are in a bad way from what I have heard.

17.629. You said that you thought you could ur two instances of the elective give us later one

members of the Council rather bringing pressure to bear to get things done in favour of certain people whose intereste they wanted to advance ?—In the Civil Service P

17.630. Yes? There are two cases which come to my mind at the present moment: one instance is that ofa certain body of Civil Serventa who were anxious to get what they claimed to be redress, and they appealed to a member of the Council of Government to support their claim.

17,831. An elected member?--Yes, an elected member. It was stated, with what truth I do not know, but it was stated openly in one of the newspapera that the member had said that he would do so if he He was returned for was returned for his district.

Continued

his district and he did take up the grievance of these gentlemen. On another evasion, on a desire expressed by one of the previous Secretaries of State, a reduction had been made in the expenditure of the Police Depart

ment

A sergeant of police was employed as finial clerk at a sergeant's salary, and with some slight adition in the shape of boilging allowance, but at a bewer salary than that appearing in the Estimates The salary was fixed by law and the action on my part. on the part of the Government. my Administration, formed the subject of debate in the Council of Gavern- ment, in which the Government was attacked first for having reduce the salary, and, secondly, for not having asked the permission of the Council of Government to de se, inasmuch as this salary had been visted by law There was no doubt in my mind that this was brought about by a representation made by the individual concerned to the member who brought the motion before the Council Those are the two principal instances that I know, but, of course, I am constantly and frequently approached by elected members of Conneil in favour of this individual and of that individual who happens to be an employee of the Government. Of course, I believe that is done every- where and one is not surprised at it. Those are the tw instances which I really know of where pressure ws, 1-lieve, brought upon the member to bring up the case.

17,4832 Let me put it in this way. Do you think it would make any difference if the members of the Civil Servien were delarred from voting at the election of elected members?--I took up that iden very strongly when I first came out here, and I was very much in favour of the change, but after inquiry into the matter. I found that the electorate would lose so many men that I did not pursue the question.

17.633. Now supposing that an elected member of Chuncil comes to you, and what one may describe an interferes with the carrying on of the business of Government by interesting himself on behalf of some individual officer, and suppose that that is constantly repeated, as naturally it would be, because if one man does it another man would do it, does that amount to

anything except the nan trying to make himself acceptable to the people on whose votes he relies for election P This is what I want you tell me. I imagine you would say simply, politely, to each of them: "This is not your business; this is the business of the "Government." P-Exactly.

17,634 Well then, does it amount to anything at all? I think it is very hud for the Government

I do not know whether you are employee that he should think he can so act or be in A position to do so. aware of it, but there was a Circular Despatch of the Secretary of State to the effect that it had been brought to his notice that members of the Colonial Service had been in the habit of interviewing and getting their interests represented by Members of Parliament-1 am talking axint Members of Parliament in England-- and Mr. Chamberlain said he very strongly objected to it in fact there was an order given that it should not continue. Well, if that holds good with regard to England, surely it should hold good with regard to the Colonies too.

17.635. But it seems to me here that the circum. stances are quite different, and that here it does not really matter when the elected member comes to the Govern

the Colonial Secretary, ment, comes to you or comes

and says, "I want to know what you are doing about "Mr. Jones; I see that he has got notice of dismissal," and so on, because you my to him: "Yes, that is a "matter purely for the Administration," and after a very short time surely they would give it up?-Bnt they do not, besides the elected member will probably take it up in the Council of Government.

17,636. But still, is not it a matter of administration ? What has he got to do with it? His business in the

a legislator, not as Legislative Council in sa agitator? You cannot stop him making a motion to that effect.

an

17,637. You cannot stop him, but you can give him an answer P-Quite so; one does so.

17 August 190N

MINUTES OF EVIDENCE.

His Excellency Sir C BOYLE, KCM.O

17.43% You can give him an nuswer that that in a water for the Executive to deal with and not for him? Why is not that answer given to him? It is given. I think it is very bad for the Civil Servant to think I think it is very wrong that he can do such things that he should be in the position to do so

17,639. Is there any reason, when that takes place. which I certainly have every reason to believe take place pretty often, that soine member of the Legislativo Council questions the Government in regard a matter which is purely an Executive matter, why he should not be told simply that it is an Executive mutter, and that the Government is dealing with it as thinks best? He can be tokl that, he generally is ob that

17.64 What can ho say?--That does not stop Ins taking up many hours of the Council's time in representing his grievance or the grievance of the person he represents and he will continue to do so. I dont blame the elected members, I blame the Civil

Servants.

17.641. Before there were ever any elected members here, I suppose you are not in a position to say whether this happened with the nominated members ?—I should Think, in all probability, that it did happen, but I cannot say because I was not here

17,642. (Mr. Woodcock I will put it in this way Do you find that it happens now on occasions through a nominated member? Very seldom with a nominated member

17.643. (Chairman.) But it does sometimes ?--I cannot recall any instance where a nominated member has made any motion of that description.

17.644. On behalf of an individual -No, I cannot rewall it.

17,645. (Mr Woodcock.) Or any nominated member of the Executive Council. Can you recall any instance of any action of that sort on the part of a nominated member of the Executive Council?-The unofficial members of the Executive Council constantly approach me, but they do not bring the question up in Council because they have no power to do so. But they do approach me in the interests of some Civil Servant.

17,646. (Chairman.) Do you mean in the Council or outside?—Outside; they cannot bring it up in the Council without my permission.

17.647. But they constantly do so in the Council F No, they constantly do outside; one individual in particular.

17.648. (Mr. Woodcock.) Have they brought up cases of that sort before the Legislative Council? Cases have been brought up. There was another case which I did not instance just now. There was a reconstruction of the Forest Department and I was at once approached in the Legislature openly in favour of an individual.

17,649. Approached by whom?-By an elected member.

17,650. (Chairman.) In regard to what ?-In regard to the salary of one of the individuals of that depart- ment. There is no doubt that this system exists, but I think that it would be so much better for the Civil Servant if, by some means, we could show him his independence in this way--that he should rely on a member of the the administration and not on Legislature.

17,651. I am surprised, because I have been acous. tomed for a great many years to a Council of nominated members, and I have never once in my life known of a case of a nominated member taking up the case of any individual member of the Civil Service or anybody outside it -I think my answer was to the same effect. I said I did not know of any instance of a nominated member doing that.

(Mr. Woodcock.) I did not appreciate that you put it as high as that.

(Chairman.) I did not either. I thought you said he would very very seldom do so here.

17,652. (Šir Edward O'Malley.) I took it down as not; no instance ?-I think I said I could not give an instance. What I did say was, that it might have been done before the elective system was introduced.

(Chairman.) Where there were no elected members.

U 2700m, &c.

97

[Continued

Of course I am only speaking of places where there are no ulected members

17,653, (Sir Edward O'Malley.) I suppose you do not exclude the nominated members asking for some- thing for himself? No. If I may be allowed to enlarge upon my answer, 1 will do so to this extent. that I think the junior class of Civil Servant and the native born Civil Servant looks to a member of the Council of Government for redress if he thinks he cannot get it from his Departmental Chief.

17,654. (Chairman.) Does he go to him first, or does he go to the head of his department first ?-It depend upon the individual; I think many an individual doc not go to the head of his department at all.

17.655. He only goes to the elected member?-- Probably, at times too he approaches the Government behind the head of the department. As an instance of what Civil Servants will do, 1 have now before me a petition from a number of Civil Servants, 1 should think certainly over 50, who wish that the system of promotion should be changed, and that there should be a reversion to a previous system which was in force, by which departmental promotion gave way to pro. motion by seniority. That petition has been prepared -it has got into the papers already, as far as I am aware without the knowledge, or, at any rate. without the formal knowledge of any single head of department. There are several departments concerned, and it has, as far as I am aware, beon sent forward without the knowledge of any single head of those departments. That. I think, is a very bad sign of the ways of some members of the Civil Service.

17.656. Would you say that it was correct or incorrect to state that the present system has under- mined discipline in the Government service ?—I would not go so far as to say that it had undermined the discipline of the Civil Service, but I think that good discipline in the Civil Service is lacking in Mauriting -I am afraid so. I do not think it is really in a combative sense that that objection to discipline exista, but it is rather from a desire to get the best that they can out of the Government by any means in their

power.

17,657. I think I asked you about the boards, did I not?—Yes.

17,658. I do not want to ask you to repeat anything that you have said before, but some of us have had an opportunity, since we last heard you, of going to see one of the Government forests, and we were certainly very much struck by what we saw there. It seems so wrong that a capable and well qualified man, being put in charge of a technical department of that kind. should not have a free hand to deal with it, and that there should be patent to anybody the fact that there are hundrede, perhaps thousands, of trees standing in the foresta there, which anybody can see, dead and dying trees, which he cannot even touch, which he cannot remove, which are standing there to the detriment of the rest of the forest, valuable timber which could be sold and removed, which would bring in a considerable revenue, and yet it is allowed to stand there, and he is told that he cannot touch it or do anything with it at all?-By the board?

17,859. And that is the effect of the control by a Board of Government Department P-I think I said, in regard to that special board, that it had caused a con- siderable amount of trouble previously when there was an expert from the Indian Forest Department there, and I think I also spoke of its utility, inasmuch as the chair- man of that board, although it seemed very ridiculous that he should be chairman of that board, was my principal legal adviser, and that he and his board were able to give me their advice on legal questions relating to land coming under their cognisance. I do not maintain the indispensable necessity of a Forest Board generally; I think it might be a good thing if it were done away with, but I have no knowledge—this is entirely new to to me that they have interfered with the action of the head of the department with regard to these

trees.

17,660. We questioned several members of the bourd publicly and they admitted that and even went so far as to say that they were not antifled that the depart

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