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MINITES OF EVIDENCE.

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(15.)

The Rev PAUL GRIMAUD, called in and examined in private through an Interpreter

11,120 CM Woodcarki

How long have you been in Mauritius-Since 1909, and I have been a priest since 1902

14.121 Which is your parish-Poudre d'Or, St Philomène

14,122 1× your parish very poor-The general population is poor, they are all workmen and fisher-

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14.123 To what do you ascribe their poverty ?—To want of work sometimes for the workmen and the had weather for the fishermen

14.124 Can you suggest any means of remedying the want of work P-They might take to small cultures, but that is stopped by thieves.

14.125. Do you think that putting them un little bata of land would be a help to them?-One would have to compel them to work As a rule they are generally lazy

14.126 Are they generally Créoles or Indiana -- Crioles

11.127 They are generally lazier than the Indians ? Yes, much

14.128 Have you anything to say to us about the way in which the Poor Law administration worka in your parish-I know that at present they distribute a great deal of money to support the paupers, but before 25e is given to a poor widow, they have already spent Rs. 5 or Rs. 6 in enquiries.

14.199 Can you make any suggestion to us as to how that might be remedied?-There ought to be a com- mittes in each district composed of the notables in ench place, who would do it for nothing, and inquiries might be made by the police, instead of aponding the large

That money which is amount that they do in carrioles spent in using carrioles might be used to help the people 14,130. Do you think that such a committee could be formed in your parish-Certainly, composed of the doctor, the inspector or sub-inspector, and two or thre notables, they could easily be found

14.131 And you would be willing to join it your self? Most certainly

14,132. Can you say anything to us about the kind of food that is supplied to the pour by the Poor Law administration They give them rice of good quality, but they are supposed to give that rice to poor widows who cannot work, and they are made to walk 10 miles to go and fetch 25 lbs. of rice

14,133. That, of course, could be distributed by the committee which you have suggested, which you would be willing to join The rice might he sent to the different police stations, and the inspector, who would form part of the committee, might, when he visits the place, make the distribution.

14,134. Do you think it would be safe to give money to these people instead of rice-To certain persons it would he better to give the rice, but they have to walk or go to a great distance to fetch that rice, and sometimes they must pay a carriole fare. which practically destroys the assistance given to them. 14.135. So you think that money would be better in many cases -In some cases it would be better to give money, but a certain amount of discretion would have to be used in giving it.

14,136. Do you know anything about the prisons or the asylums in the Laland P-I know personally nothing about them. I can only give the information given to me by a magistrate before whom 1 was prosecuting a child.

The witness withdrew,

(16.)

Father VICTOR MALAVAL, called in and examined in private through an Interpreter.

14.137 (Chairman) What parish do you belong tof- I have no special parish My duty is to give

missions all over the diocese.

14.338. Our time has been so taken up with listen- ing to Canon Bilsborrow that there is very little time left to ask you any questions now, so I will ask you to be as brief as you can ?--I have sent in a small report. and I presume you have read it.

I understand, with

14,189 have got it here. regard to the reformatory, that you are in favour of putting the reformatory, which you say is very badly managed. into the hands of some roligious society, who would look after the boys ?--I have been asked by Government to report on the question at the time 1 was in charge of it, and I have sent a detailed report of what would have to be done in the reformatory.

14,140. Have you ever had charge of the reforma. tory -No, I was in charge of the religious instruction of the boys.

14,141. And so you know a good deal about it ?— Yes. I have been in close touch with it and studied it.

14,142. Everybody is agreed that it is very bad and should be altered ?—Yes.

14.143. You speak of the Boulement d'Argent What do you want to say about that ?--I mean usurers, who are very numerous, especially among the working classes.

14,144. You would like to see the rate of interest reduced; but then you speak also of property being put out in the name of a man's wife, in order to defeat his creditors P-1 think this is done nearly all the world over; but, in the interests of justice, it would be na wall that some measure should be taken that the creditors should not be deprived of their rights.

14,145. That is something which it is very difficult to prevent. I imagine that that in a matter for the legal authorities of the Government-for the Procureur General to deal with P-I admit it is.

14,146. I have noticed what you have said about the Royal College and the schools which are attached to it, and we have discussed the matter with Canon Bilsborrow ---Very well.

The witness withdrew.

Adjourned till Thursday next at 11 o'clock.

TWENTY-THIRD SITTING.

K

Thursday, 29th July 1909.

At The Castle," Beau-Bassin.

(17.)

The Rev. GEORGE MCIRVINE, called in and examined in private.

14,147 (Chairman.) You have been here for more than 50 years, I think P-Yea.

14,148. How many Presbyterian churches are there in Mauritius -I have two Presbyterian churches, one at Port Louis and one at Rose Hill, but there is a Presbyterian mission; they have, I think, 11 churches, Mr. Anderson regulates them, there are seven churches and four mission stations.

14,149. Are they under your direction P-No. 14,150. Nothing to do with you ?-No. 14,151. Are they supported by the Government ?— YAR, the Government gives a grant-in-aid, but there is only one minister, Mr. Anderson, and there is no pension attached to his salary.

14.152. Is a lump sum then given to them every year - Yea.

14,153. Do you know how much P-By Ordinance No. 27 of 1890 they get Rs. 2,583.

14,154. How do they support those 11 churches then P-I asked the missionary one day how he sup ported them, and he said he gets a monthly allowance from the Government and he just genda to the Colonial Commissioners of Scotland, and whatever he wants they pay him.

15.155. He did not tell you what it costs to support all those mission churches -No; he is allowed 3001. a year from the Colonial Committee of the Church of Scotland and he gets Rs. 185 every month from the grant from Government and a catechist in connection with my church gets Rs. 360 per annum.

14,156. How many people have you in your church, at the two churches P-There are about 2,000, I think altogether.

14.157. What are they are they Créoles or Indians Br both ?-Créoles, Indians and Scotch Presbyterians.

14,158. The Government allows you Rs. 4,000 a year. Is that right?—Yes.

14.159. Is that just a lump sum which is given to you, and you do with it the best you can?—No, I am paid monthly Rs. 333 33c.

14,160. It is a pensionable post then ?—Yes. 14,181. Now suppose with regard to whatever the Government had to allow, that it was just given to the Presbyterian Church here, without any question of pensions, or payment to any individual or anything of that kind, would it make much difference P-I think

not.

14,162. Do you get no support from any other source except from the Government P-No, except from the Military.

14.183. They make an allowance?-For many years they allowed me 801. a year, and when the 91st Regi ment came here, the Conmanding Officer insisted that I should ask for more, but I declined to ask for more; then he wrote a letter and made me sign it, asking that I should get more, and I was immediately granted by the War Department Rs. 1,200.

14,164. Ra. 1,200 instead of 301. P-Yes.

14,165. Do your congregation subscribe nothing !— They pay their expenses.

14,166. I do not quite understand what you mean by They pay their expenses."-What we have to pay to our guardians and to the catechists and for the cleaning of the churches and other expenses.

14,167. Is that an offertory on Sundays?—Yes. 14,168. Who built the churches -The Scotchmen getting a grant of 1,0002. from the Government.

14,169. From this Government P-Yes.

14.170. Now do you know who built the mission churches -The London Missionary Society. They belonged to the London Missionary Society until 1880, and then they petitioned the General Assembly of the Church of Scotland to be admitted to the Church of Scotland, and they were admitted. There were two clergymen then, and they were both admitted clergy. men of the Church of Scotland.

14,171. And it has so remained ever since ?-Yes, only that there is only one now.

14,172. Does he do duty at all those seven different churches and the four missions? Does he give a service -He has elders to replace him when he cannot go himself.

14,179. Do they have a service every Sunday at every one of those churches-I think so, but I am

not sure.

14,174. Have you any schoola P-No, I had for many years an Indian school, but I have that no longer now, I handed over the Indians that we had in that school to the Government Superintendent, who took charge of it-Mr. Comber Brown.

14,175. Then you do not do anything at all except the services of the church P-And that takes up all my time. I have one service at Curepipe and Vacoa alternately every Sunday, then, after going to Curepipe I go down to Port Louis and I have a service there at 11 o'clock; then I go to Rose Hill and I have a service there, which is the best of all attended, at a quarter past three.

14,176. And in the week you do nothing ?—I have no service in the week. I have a catechist who has a weekly service at Rose Hill; that is for the Indians.

14,177. You have been here such a long time, so can you tell us whether the number of Presbyterians has increased or otherwise !-Rather diminished. A num- ber of mercantile firms, which contributed largely to the founding of the Scotch Church in Port Louis, nu longer exist in the Colony.

14,178. How long had the Presbyterian Church been in existence when you came here P-Six years.

14,179. Who founded it -My predecessor was the Rev. Patrick Beaton.

14,180. Was there a Government contribution when you came P-Yes, Mr. Beaton had 2501. sterling from the Government, and the congregation contributed 757. a year, and the Government gave 751. to make it up to 4001. altogether, and I continued to receive 4001, a year until, I think, 1888, and then I received Rs. 4,000.

14,181. And it has so remained ever since -Yes. 14,182. Now there is nobody connected with your ohurch who is drawing any pension from the Govern ment now No.

14,183. Do you know anything of the poor in Mauritius P-Yes.

14,184. Have you any society which does anything for them -We do it all through the church, sui personally the members of the church.

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