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27 July 1909)

MAURITIUS ROYAL COMMISSION, 1909

The Very Rev E CHALVET

14,037 (Mr Woodcock. They do not mix freely?-- As a rule they are together, but they generally prefer to keep apart

11.05% (Chairman) Do they play together ?-1 bi not say I was not there during recreation. 14,039. Do you know anything about the education le of their life at the schools and the college -Only from hearsay, only from children, or from Professors with whom I have talked.

11.060 Do you know anything about the moral conduct of the boys, is it goodd-Once or twice the Professors or the Ushers asked me to say something to the boys about certain conversations in the railway carriages I must add that the boys seemed very sorry for those observations, and I think they took account of them

101 They did not like being spoken to?-I think they were more humiliated by the remarks, but I think they had no more conversations; they took note of it

14.062 They did not deny, in fact, that there were caners for your speaking to thein?-1 did not question them. but I made general remarks and I saw some of This is eight or ten years them hold their heads down.

ago.

14.063 Have you heard recently that they have not behaved very well in the trains? No, I have heard that they had jokes in the trains, but I never heard anything special.

14.064. Have you ever heard of their ill-treating the little boya in the train ?-No.

14,05. Have you ever heard of them fighting in the classes at the Royal College?—No.

14,066. Can you tell us anything about the people of your parish--the poor people there; what do you think of them?-There is a great deal of pauperiom in my parish, which is one of the best so far as position is concerned.

14,067. What is it caused by?-Want of work.

14,068 Are there too many people of that class in Mauritius? There are too many workmen and too little work, not only at Vacos but everywhere, and I know about the whole of the Colony, and I think it is the Bame all mund

14,069. Can you think of any means of dealing with that state of poverty - think that the primary instruction ought to be reformed.

14,070. With what object -The programmes ought to be changed; they are too heavy, and after those boys have been left at school till 14 or 15 years of age. it is too late for them to take to the land, and they become very bad workmen.

14.071. Then you think that they should not stop at school so long or learn so much? I think that the programme ought to be altered in this way, that up to the third standard inclusively, they ought to be taught orally one of the languages and to write the other, with a little arithmetic.

14,972. That would take them up to what age?— Eleven or twelve years of age. At that moment they might be used or employed as boys or young gardeners in the houses, but if left at school until 14 or 15 the parents themselves are rather repugnant to use them to work the land, and they only do so when they have failed everywhere else.

14,078. Mr. Woodcock.) Would that difficulty be met by making a small charge after they have passed the third standard ?—I think a fee would be very unpopular, and, on the other hand, I do not think it would be just to prevent those intelligent boys some of them are very intelligent-from going on, which would be the result if they could not pay the fee.

14,074. (Chairman.) They might always be made to pass a competitive examination or qualifying exam- ination?—Yes, there is an examination to go from the third standard to the fourth standard, but that exam- ination might be made more difficult, so as to throw away thom who are not intelligent and keep the good ones, and even then I think the programme, as a whole, ought to be modified. There is nothing in the system to induce them to take up manual work or field work; on the contrary, it is just the reverse.

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14,075. Then generally you think that what is wanted is to keep the children on the land --As much as possible.

14.076. And not to give them an education which is not suited to their wants-Yes, as a rule, but make an exception, of course, for the more intelligent boys.

14,077 And if the boy was very clever, then it might be worth his while to let him continue his education - Yes.

14,078. If his father is able to afford it -The fee would be most unpopular, and 1 doubt if you could get one out of three to pay it.

14,079. Have you been speaking of any section of the Créole community or the Indian community, or do you mean all the children?-I am speaking of the whole population, but more especially the Créole popu- lation, who will not work the land, but who, I think. would come to it if they were led to it.

14,080. Do you think that there is no opportunity in Mauritius for artisans, people who could make boote and shoes, and tailors and shirt-makers and so on. IA there no opportunity for them to earn a living here P -There are already a great many of them.

14.081. Do they find custom then; do they get people to buy their shirts and buy their boots -They do generally sometimes, but shoemakers, for instance. I think, do not find work for more than half of the year, as a rule.

14,082. Why is that P-There are too

many of them. In my parish there are some 35 or 40 shoe. makers, apprentices or workmen.

14,083. (Mr. Woodcock.) Are they good ?-Some

of them are good; some are not.

14,084. (Chairman.) How many years have you been in Mauritius -Twenty-one years.

14,085. Would you say that the poorer popu- lation who do wear boots and ahoea buy Mauritius- made boots and shoes?—The poorer classee wear more especially Mauritius-made boots and shoes, but they regard it as a great luxury to have a pair of boots which have been imported.

14,086. Where do those imported boots and shoes come from P-From London and Paris.

14,087. Are they sold in the shops in Port Lonis, or do the people send for them themselves P-More generally they are sold in the shops in Port Louis; the richer classes order them out themselves.

14,088. Is what you say about boots and shoes just the same with reference to clothes and shirts and everything else P-I think I have got 20 tailors in my parish, including apprentices and workmen.

14,089. And they all have something to do; they are always making clothes, are they -During about half their time the better ones find work.

14,090. What you say with reference to boots and shoes is just the same with regard to clothes; the poor people get Mauritius-made clothes, and once in a way they get some that are imported ?—Yes, but as a rule the poorer classes are dressed here.

14,091. Where do they get the raw material-the leather for making boots and the stuff for making the dresses -They generally get their leather either on the spot, or they go and buy it from shops in town; where that comes from I cannot say.

14,092. You do not know whether it is Mauritius leather or imported. You know that there in a tannery there are two. I believe in Mauritius for making leather; places for curing the leather?-Yea, and even know one of the tanners, Mr. Fleuriet.

14,093. That is probably the leather which is made up by these people in Mauritius. Where do they get the cloth for making up clothes and the linen for making shirta P-They buy a great deal from the Arabe, from the Lascars, and from the Chinese dealers.

14,094. (Sir Edward O'Malley) In your neighbour. hood in there available land upon which people who have nothing else to live upon might be placed P- There in a large quantity.

14,095. Do you think that it would be a practical measure, where these people are very poor and are wanting assistance, to place them upon the land to cultivate it for a living?-Yes, but they would want advances, because they possess nothing.

27 July 1909

MINUTES OF EVIDENCE.

The Very Rev E CHALVET

14.09 Quite so, they would want some small assistance, to build themselves a hut and start their cultivation ?—Yes, I think this might be more specially tried with the Créole population. If they did not take it on, then that would be so much less responsibility for Government, and if they did that would benefit the whole community

14,097 And that. I suppose, is pretty true with regard to various parts of the Island-In the whole Colony. In my parish there is perhaps more land. because it is not quite suitable for canes, but on the voust there is still lund, and especially at Black River, but their drawback is want of water.

14,098. That is of course, one of the necessariea. If you put them down to cultivate the land, they must l near roads and near water? Yes, they would naturally want water for drinking on the coast they would want it for irrigation.

14,099. And you think there is an abundance of land of that kind?—Yes, especially in my parish.

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14,100. You know the poor; you see them. you think that there are many of those who come for relief; who come begging or seeking apparently for relief, who would be glad of such a chance?--I cannot May many, but some would. Then one might use against them the argument, that, if they come to be in need they will not be helped by the Poor Law Commission, because the head of the family has refused.

14.101. A work test in fact? Yes.

14,102. (Chairman.) What do you mean by that: that if it was in the up-country they would want water to drink, but if it was in the low country, they would want water for irrigation. Does not the land want irrigation in the up-country-For instance, in my parish cauliflowers grow beautifully at the spot where people have to walk 20 minutes for water for drinking.

14,103. There is no water within a mile? Yes, I would like to say something about the schools. I have heard that it was proposed to reduce the amount of result grants to schools. I have three schools under my management, and I have been looking after schools ever since I was in the Colony. If you will allow me, I will give you what the schoolmasters may earn with the school grants. The first class men receive Rs. 960 as salary and I think they do not receive more than an average of Rs. 500 grants, which gives them Rs. 1,460. Schoolmistresses of the first class receive Rs. 720 and the result grant is about the same, Rs. 500. which is Rs. 1,220. Assistants, Recond-class masters. receive Ra. 480 and the grants do not amount to more than an average of Rs. 150, which gives a total of Ra. 630 and no quarters. The assistants in the second class schools-masters-receive Rs. 360 salary and Rs. 150 as result grants, which is Re. 510. In the third class, assistants receive Rs. 360 and I should say about Rs. 150 average grant, which is not quite the figure. Formerly an assistant of the third class received Rs. 300 salary and Rs. 150 grant, which gives them Rs. 450. Monitors and monitresses receive Rs. 240 and the result grants do not go over Rs. 30, which makes a total of Rs. 970 for the year.

14,104. What is your object in giving these figures Is it to show that the schoolmasters at these schools

are very underpaid ?-My object is to prove that these salaries could not be reduced.

14,105. I do not think there has been any proposal to reduce the salaries of the schoolmasters in any of these private schools P-I heard that there was proposal to reduce the result grants.

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14,106. A great many witnesses have suggested to the Commission that the present Code should be given up, and that you should go back to the Code which was in existence before Sir Charles Bruce introduced this one P-So far as the programmes go, I think it would be better to go back to the old Code, but as to the salaries, I do not think it would be advisable, because it would really mean cutting down the salaries of the teachers.

14.107. You would like to have the programme the same and the result grants the same, but the salaries

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to be on the new scule P-I think that the two programmes ought to be imported into a new and third one more adapted to the present wants of the population. because I think they are neither adapted to the wants of the population. May I be allowed to say something about the Poor Law authority. There are, in my parish. about 100 persons who at night have to think of what they are going to eat the next day and, in the morning, of what they are going to eat at night, and I am not exaggerating if I say that in my parish, which is mainly composed of workmen, there is about one-fifth who have not enough to eat, and I think that the system of assistance to the poor should be modified.

14.108. (Mr. Woodcock.) In what way ?—I think it should be decentralised and an office should be kept in every town or village. There are about 50 or 60 Christian villages in the Colony, and I, think that there should be an office in each one.

14,109. Do you know anything about the Elberfeld system —No, I know that Dr. Antelme proposed a plan to Government.

14,110. (Chairman.) Will you continue your answer with regard to the poor law?—The office in each parish would be in charge of the distribution of charity to the poor. Of course they would not be paid for so doing. Well-known people in the place might be taken, who would know much more about the poor than the Poor Law Commissioner does. I do not want, in any way, to attack the Poor Law Commissioner, or his employees. but it is practically impossible for him at Port Louis to know what takes place in the different parts of the Island. Besides that, the doctors who are in charge of the dispensaries are not obliged to visit the poor patients at home, and I admit it is rather difficult for them to do so, and I know of a good many deaths which might have been prevented if a doctor had seen the patient. For instance, with regard to women who are confined with new-born children at home, the death rate is very high. There is a high death rate among work. meu catching colds, and, for want of being attended to they become consumptives. I think, if they could be visited by a doctor, the death rate might be considerably diminished and that would be a great boon to the whole community.

14,111. But if the man has got a cold, could not he go and see the doctor then, instead of the doctor going to him?-They could, but as a rule Créoles, and more especially Indians, only go and see the doctor when they cannot help it, and they have a great repugnance to going to dispensaries.

14,112. I think that what you are suggesting is that everybody should have a nurse until he is quite old !-- No.

14,113. But what are you to do with people who are so negligent that they will not take care of them. selves? Some, of course, do not want to be looked after, but as a rule they would require to be attended to, and cannot be attended to. I give se an instance a woman who has been confined with a new-born child; she cannot go to the dispensary.

14,114. (Mr Woodcock.) A doctor could be fetched in those cases; they are exceptional ?—They are especially careless about colds; they go to the dispen- sary when they have fever.

14,115. (Chairman.) Do you know that there aro 41 Government doctors in this Island ?—Yes.

14.116. Then surely you are not saking that that number should be incressed P-No, but although it is a question on which I am not entitled to give un opinion. I think that the system might be modified so that the poor might get some benefit from it. I should like to my something about the rice for the poor. The rice which is given to them is awfully bad.

14,117. Will you send a sample of it to us ?—1 will take a sample of it myself.

14,118. (Mr. Woodcock.) If you do that, divide it into two and send us one part of it, and send the other to the Poor Law authority and my that you have sent it to the Commissioners ?---Yes, I will do that.

14,119. You will do that if you do not mind ?-— Certainly.

The witness withdrew.

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27 July 198009

MAURITIUS ROYAL COMMISSION, 1900

The Rev P GHIRAUD

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