CO885-24

PUBLIC RECORD OFFICE

Reference :-

mmmmm C.O. 885

24 PUBLIC RECORD OFFICE, LONDON

ALLY WITHOUT PERMISSION OF THE BE REPRODUCED PHOTOGRAPHIC- COPYRIGHT PHOTOGRAPH-NOT TO

13 January 1915.]

OVERSEA PRIZE DISPOSAL COMMITTEE:

Mr. J. G. BELL and 14 Others.

that so and so are to have priority of treatment on any particular day.

(Mr. McLeod.) Is not there a risk of the man who is going to get preference getting off at a very light figure if he knows he will have that preference P

(Chairman.) I do not know. 1 am not going to tell him.

(Mr. McLeod.) To adopt Mr. Watson's phrase, the two weeks' stock company and the six weeks' stock company know their relative positions, and if the two weeks' stock company put in a requisition for a boat or a couple of boats, it knows it will be largely pro. tected, and it will not bid high.

(Chairman.) How is he to know what the other men will bid?

(Mr. McLeod.) I think it is risky.

(Chairman.) I quite see there is a possibility, but you have to remember this, that everybody will not know as much about the other firm's business as you think they do. I do not know whether there is any sort of association or arrangement by which you gentlemen could sist us. If we could have a weekly statenent showing your requirements and showing what is wanted, I think it would assist us very much indeed in trying to get this very difficult problem solved. Do you think it is possible to do that?

(Mr. Watson.) I think we could organise a traders committee quite easily.

(Chairman.) I think that would help us enormously, and I think we could probably help you.

(Mr. Watson.) From our side it will be very much appreciated because we should feel that there was a machinery on our side for dealing with the thing.

(Chairman.) Will you take it in hand?

(Mr. Watson.) Your is a standing committee, I take it?

(Chairman.) Oh, yes.

(Mr. Shoubridge.) As representing a gas company, may I say the proposal you have just made strikes me as an eminently satisfactory one from the consumers' point of view. It comes somewhat to the position that obtains with regard to the railway companies, the Government getting the managers of all the great lines together and conferring with those who know the actual necessities of the case, and are therefore able to arrange the working of the railways more satisfactorily to everybody concerned. I think that if a deputation from this body of users and from the coal interests were to meet your Committee once a week and confer with you and put before you the real necessities of the gan companies, and the electric companies, and the water companies, you would then be in a position to give such orders as would prevent an undue amount of coal going in any one direction. You would see that the lighting of London, which, after all, is a tremendous thing, is within the possibility of extinction in six weeks, so that there is no time to be lost. It wants some controlling authority which would be able to impose its will upon the whole of the people concerned and say: Now such and such coal must be sent to such a place: "it is in desperate need and must have it." It is not a matter of money at all, in my opinion; it is a matter of keeping London lighted.

(Chairman.) You will see to that, and if you will let me know in the course of a day or so who your representatives will be I shall be delighted to meet you once a week, and we can confer and settle up out- It will assist our standing points then and there. task enormously, and we shall be only too glad to have it.

(Mr. F. Lockett.) Could not you go so far as to settle the freights at the same time P

[Continued.

certain method of procedure. We can give that a trial and see how it works out, and than improve on it, but do not let us go and decide it now,

(Mr. Watson.) Your suggestion is that it should be a committee, composed of consumers of gas, electricity and water?

(Chairman.) Yes.

(Mr. Watson.) And the contractors, or some of the contractors ?

(Chairman.) Yes. We do not want a large com. mittee. I should think you could arrange with two or three gentlemen-that would be quite sufficient. want to have all the interests concerned represented. If one has a large committee one does not get through the work; everybody wants to have their say.

(Mr. Hamilton Greig.) I ventured to put a suggestion before the Admiralty whether it was not possible to increase this supply of tonnage to London by loading the boats which have finished coaling the Fleet, instead of stemning round to Cardiff empty, to get another cargo, whether they could not be placed at the disposal of the trade to load at the Tyne and then proceed to Cardiff. It would only mean the delay of one day at

each end.

(Chairman.) That is a possible thing and I will consider it. I will talk it over with the responsible people. It is not in my handa, and therefore I cannot give you an answer now, but it is quite a possible suggestion, and I will consider it.

(Mr. Hamilton Greig.) Thank you, sir.

(Chairman.) Will you consider that matter, Mr. Watson, and let me know?

(Mr. Watson.) Yes. May I have the list of the names of the gentlemen present here sent to my office so that I can get into communication with them, because I do not know everybody here ?

(Chairman.) Yes.

(Mr. Watson.) Then we will let you know the names of the committee, and then you will arrange for a meeting.

(Chairman.) We will arrange for a meeting as soon as possible, as soon as we have anything to talk about. What I would like from yon, as a matter of course, is some sort of indication as to the urgent needs of the particular companies.

(Mr. Watson.) Would you leave that to the com- mittee, or would you yourselves make inquiry with regard to the stocks of the companies as you did before! It would probably come with more force from your side of the table.

(Chairman.) The only other auggestion I can make is that each individual company should give us a return. I do not want the rail-borne stocks, but if the companies which are drawing their coal over-ses could give us a weekly return as to what they have and what they want per week, it would be useful.

(Mr. Watson.) The Board of Trade got a statement of that kind about ten days ago.

(Chairman.) It might be done in that way.

(Mr. Watson.) That would save us doing it. (Mr. Roper.) But that would be changed every week. You do not suggest a weekly circular by the Board of Trade P

(Chairman.) No.

(Mr. Watson.) A weekly return of stocks.

(Mr. Hamilton Graig.) Is there such a thing us (L plan of any of these boats?

(Chairman.) I think they are all fairly good. There are only one or two that are bad. The plans will all be got out as far as possible. Of course, you must understand we have not an unlimited staff; it is a case of labour like everything else. We will do our best to help you. I cannot promise you that you shall have the plans of all the boats immediately.

(Chairman.) I will let you know in three weeks time; I will not say now. I must see how things are going. I dare say we shall be able to modify the scheme very considerably as time goes on, when we have discussed the thing here and have drawn up s

Adjourned.

(Mr. Watson.) On behalf of the gentlemen here, I thank you very much for the very patient way in which you have listened to our arguments,

MINUTES OF EVIDENCE.

Monday, 8th February 1915.

Evidence taken at the Twenty-fifth Meeting.

MEMBERS PRESENT:

VICE-ADMIRAL SIR EDMOND J. W. SLADE, K.C.I.E., K.C.V.O. (in the Chair).

Mr. G. L. BARSTOW, C.B.

Mr. W. J. EVANS.

Mr. T. H. HOLT.

Mr. H. W. MALKIN.

Mr. GLANVILL attended.

931. (Chairman.) I understand that the arrangements for insurance proposed by your firm will cover the cargo up to any amount P-Yes.

933. The total value at risk being settled afterwarda when we come to know it P—Yes.

933. Not to exceed 230,0001, in any one ship ?—That is not absolutely binding. That is merely a request on the part of the companies. If you had one of 300,0001. they are not to say to you, "We are not to cover 300,0001,"

934. I do not anticipate that there will be any !--- They wanted me to name a figure, and I said that was all I could name as a suggestion to them, but it was in no sense to be binding.

935. The way in which you settle the value is to be, if possible, by the already insured value?-Yes, the ulready insured value leas 10 per cent., which seemed to me to be a fair estimate for the freight that would not be earned for any vessel that was at Alexandria.

936. (Mr. Roper.) And that would extend to all the other vessels in the other ports of the Empire in the same sense?—Yes.

937. That is not in any sense binding if for any reason you wanted to make it different. That is only a suggestion on my part as to the basis of value-

938. (Mr. Barstow.) Has the already insured value been arrived at -The merchant has arrived at the value probably before he shipped the goods; he would protect himself by means of an insurance policy, and that policy would contain probably the invoice value plus certain changes, and that would be the basis of the valuation. The merchant insures for marine risks the actual value of the goods plus the cost of getting them to their destination.

939. (Chairman.) Where there is no marine policy what is your proposal exactly for settling the value ?— Well, the proposal that I suggested in the first instance was that we should take the valuation of your repre- sentative, some official, on the spot, but the insurance companies suggested to me what seemed to me rather wise, that possibly a man might say, "Oh, these things are only worth 5001," when they might be worth a very much larger sum. Therefore, it was suggested that that should be subject to a further investigation on this side if necessary, that is to say, if we found we had nocepted a premium on the basis of 5001., and the stuff was really worth 3,0007, it would be open to the companies here to come to you and say, "Well, this valuation is obviously not correct.”

9-40. I think that is quite right. It will be very difficult, probably, out there, to anire at any sort of valuation unless they have all the papers connected with the consignment in front of them ?-Well, I think you will find in nine cases out of ten there is a policy.

941. I expect there is ?--You, there is a policy of some kind. There is very little stuff now that is not insured.

942. But that policy may be in Germany?—Yes, but even then the sender of the goods would probably know the value for which they were insured. I do not think that there would be a difficulty in ascertaining the figure for marine insurance policies, the value put upon the goods, and I think in the other cases probably their representative at Alexandria would know the

Mr. G. ROPER.

Mr. C. TENNYSON, C.M.G. Mr. L. D. WAKELY.

Mr. R. A. WISEMAN (Secretary).

class of goods that was passing through Alexandria and at certain perioda of the year almost the same goods come; so that from the local official price list they would be able to get a fairly near idea of the value of the goods. I think.

943. At any rate, the companies are quite willing to accept it on that basis ?--Yes, the companies are quite willing to accept it on that basis.

944. There is a point which, I think, wants consider- ation: assuming that the deduction of 10 per cent, is fair at Alexandria, it is hardly safe to assume that that 10 per cent. is an equally fair deduction, say, at Fremantle P-1 quite_agree. I think that is quite possible, because at Fremantle the freight would not have been earned at all, the vessel not having sailed. Possibly at the place where the vessel is almost at the commencement of ita voyage it would be fair to take off a larger percentage than 10 per cent.

945. Tell me, from your own experience of these things, what is the percentage which is usually added to the invoice price of the goods to cover coste ?—About 10 per cent.

946. About 10 per cent. altogether for the whole journey-Yes. That is to say, the 10 per cent. is an added profit. Sometimes that 10 per cent. is supposed to include the freight and everything in connection with the venture, and sometimes, of course, the merchant, where he is going to make a very large profit or the stuff which is shipped to this country, insures for an extra 15, 20 or 25 per cent.

947. But that is insuring his profits ?--No, becaUSA you see the marine policy is a valued policy, and a man can insure cargo worth 151. for 1007., if he likes. It is not like a fire insurance, as a merchant cannot control the sinking of a ship for the sake of recovering an enhanced value on his goods; and if he is foolish enough to pay a premium on 1001. when the value is 151, he recovers, in the event of total loss, 1007.

948. Do you think the consignees would object to that deduction and say it was not sufficient ?—I do not think so, because I take it they would have to pay the premium. I think they would take it we were rather looking after their interests. In the event of a fire they get the actual value of the stuff at the place where the fire takes place, so that they are fully protected. This is only for the purpose of paying the premium. In the event of fire, if the consignee said, "You have not insured fully enough," the answer would be, "Oh. yes ¡ if you had had a fire you would have had the value of these goods at the place on the day of the fire." But this is simply a value for the purpose of charging a premium, and it should also be borne in mind that the premium at most of the places would have been more than wo are charging, because these rates which have been given to you are special rates.

949. Quite so. Now, you say that in case of fire the amount paid over is the value of the thing at the place at the time of the fire: how is that arrived at P— That would be arrived at under the clause in my letter which refers to your appointing an assessor and the companies appointing an assessor, and they, if necessary, appointing a chairman or arbitrator.

950 I see. It is an arbitration, really?—Yes. It is recognised by all the fire companies on the cover.

H 2

MINUTES OF EVIDENCE,

PUBLIC RECORD OFFICE

Reference :-

PICO. 885

24 PUBLIC RECORD OFFICE, LONDON

ALLY WITHOUT PERMISSION OF THE COPYRIGHT PHOTOGRAPH—NOT TO BE REPRODUCED PHOTOGRAPHIC-

Monday, 8th February 1915.

Evidence taken at the Twenty-fifth Meeting.

MEMBERS PRESENT:

VICE-ADMIRAL SIR EDMOND J. W. SLADE, K.C.I.E., K.C.V.O. (in the Chair).

Mr. G. L. BARSTOW, C.B.

Mr. W. J. Evans.

Mr. T. H. HOLT.

Mr. H. W. MALKIN.

Mr. GLANVILL attended.

. (Chairman.) I understand that the arrangements uranos proposed by your firm will cover the cargo

by amount ?--Yea.

. The total value at risk being settled afterwards

ve come to know it P-Yes.

I. Not to exceed 250,0001, in any one ship P―That absolutely binding. That is merely a request on rt of the companies. If you had one of 300,0001.

not to say to you, "We are not to cover 01."

I do not anticipate that there will be any ?— ranted me to name a figure, and I said that was suld name as a suggestion to them, but it was in se to be binding.

The way in which you settle the value is to be, ible, by the already insured value P-Yes, the rinsured value less 10 per cent., which seemed to be a fair estimate for the freight that would not led for any vessel that was at Alexandria.

1. (Mr. Roper.) And that would extend to all the ressels in the other ports of the Empire in the ence ?-You.

'. That is not in any sense binding if for any you wanted to make it different. That is only a tion on my part as to the basis of value-

. (Mr. Barstow.) Has the already insured value arrived at ?—The merchant has arrived at the srobably before he shipped the goods; he would himself by means of an insurance policy, and licy would contain probably the invoice value plus charges, and that would be the basis of the

on.

The merchant insures for marine risks the value of the goods plus the cost of getting them r destination.

!. (Chairman.) Where there is no marine policy your proposal exactly for settling the value ? he proposal that I suggested in the first instance at we should take the valuation of your repre- re, some official, on the spot, but the insurance nies suggested to me what seemed to me rather hat possibly a mau night say, "Oh, these things ly worth 5001," when they might be worth a auch larger sum. Therefore, it was suggested at should be subject to a further investigation side if necessary, that is to say, if we found we cepted a premium on the basis of 5001., and the as really worth 3,000, it would be open to the nies here to come to you and say, " Well, this on is obviously not correct."

I think that is quite right. It will be very t, probably, out there, to arrive at any sort of on unless they have all the papers connected 36 consignment in front of them ?-Well, I think 11 find in nine cases out of ten there is a policy. .. I expect there is?—Yes, there is a policy of rind. There is very little stuff now that is not 1.

I. But that policy may be in Germany?—Yos, an then the sender of the goods would probably the value for which they were insured. I do not that there would be a difficulty in ascertaining ura for marine insurance policies, the value put be goods, and I think in the other cases probably representative at Alexandria would know the

Mr. G. ROPER.

Mr. C. TENKYBON, C.M.G. Mr. L. D. WAKELY.

Mr. R. A. WISEMAN (Secretary).

class of goods that was passing through Alexandria and at certain periods of the year almost the same

goods come; so that from the local official price list they would be able to get a fairly near idea of the value of the goods, I think.

943. At any rate, the companies are quite willing to accept it on that basis?—Yes, the companies are quite willing to accept it on that basia,

944. There is a point which, I think, wants consider. ation: assuming that the deduction of 10 per cent, is fair at Alexandris, it is hardly safe to assume that that 10 per cent. is an equally fair deduction, say, at Fremantle -I quite agree.

I think that is quite possible, because at Fremantle the freight would not have been earned at all, the vessel not having sailed.

Possibly at the place where the vessel is almost at the commencement of its voyage it would be fair to take off a larger percentage than 10 per cent.

945. Tell me, from your own experience of these things, what is the percentage which is usually added to the invoice price of the goods to cover costs P-About 10 per cent.

946. About 10 per cent. altogether for the whole journey? Yes. That is to say, the 10 per cent. is an added profit. Sometimes that 10 per cent, is supposed to include the freight and everything in connection with the venture, and sometimes, of course, the merchant,

where he is going to make a very large profit or the stuff which is shipped to this country, insures for an extra 15, 20 or 25 per cent.

947. But that is insuring his profits P-No, becauso you see the marine policy is a valued policy, and a mau

can insure cargo worth 151. for 1001., if he likes. It is not like a fire insurance, as a merchant cannot control the sinking of a ship for the sake of recovering an enhanced value on his goods; and if he is foolish

enough to pay a premium on 1001. when the value is 13. he recovers, in the event of total loss, 1001.

if you yes; had had a fire you would have had the "value of these goods at the place on the day of the "fire." But this is simply a value for the purpose of charging a premium, and it should also be borne in mind that the premium at most of the place would have been more than we are charging, because these rates which have been given to you are special rates,

949. Quite so. Now, you say that in case of fire

the amount paid over is the value of the thing at the place at the time of the fire: how is that arrived at P— That would be arrived at under the clause in my letter which refers to your appointing an assessor and the companies appointing an

and they, if necessary, appointing a chairman or arbitrator.

BABESBUT,

950 I see. It is an arbitration, really?—Yes. It is recognised by all the fire companies on the cover.

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