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PUBLIC RECORD OFFICE

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24 PUBLIC RECORD OFFICE, LONDON

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13 January 1915.]

OVERSEA PRIZE DISPOSAL COMMITTEE:

Mr. J. G. BELL and 14 Others.

into the market and take up free boats, and that has, in the course of about six weeks, run the freight up to ita present height of 18. That is the history of what has happened. We do not want free boats if we have contract boats. The contracts have been broken by the action of the Government. We were not in the habit of taking free boats, but what we want is to have the contract boats replaced, and that is what we hoped We hoped you were this scheme was going to do. going to say: "You have lost 50 boats which have "been taken out of your contracts, and we are going "to give you back again 35 boats to replace them, and "let them count as more or less part of the contract "-18. or whatever it in." Then we would have known what our position was; we would have gone on with our 85 boats instead of 100. But now we are not only going to have our contracts broken, we are going to have to compete for those 35 boata, and it is awfully hard.

(Chairman.) It is; I quite agree.

(Mr. Watson.) And, moreover, dangerous, because it will tend to make competition, which will make the richest ex mpany get a boat and the others not.

(Chairman) I hope it will not do that. By watch- ing the business carefully I hope we shall be able to avoid that, and to ensure that everybody gets their fair share, as far as we can.

(Mr. McLeod.) Will your agent be permitted to take the highest figure!

(Chairman.) No, not necessarily.

Mr. Roper.) Do you mean compelled? (Mr. McLeod.) Yes.

(Chairman.) No, not necessarily. It is in this way : I will take the Gas Light and Coke Company as being a very large consumer. Supposing they have taken up a ship and for the next ship that comes along there are other competitors, and there are other interests which have to be covered, the Gas Light and Coke Company would not be allowed to take that ship although they might offer the highest sum. We must try and share it out in some way like that.

(Mr. McLeod.) Would not that be contrary to the principle laid down that you will not disturb the market operations?

(Chairman.) I think it will, undoubtedly. It is a question of trying to divide up this very small number among all the competing interests.

Mr. McLeod.) I quite see the thing must have been very carefully considered, and your decision taken, but number of I would like to ask this. There are a boats available. There are a large number of boats taken from the firms who were under obligations to the gas companies. To meet their obligations they have had to go into the market and charter boats at very high rates. It occurred to me it would not be im- possible to allot these boats you have proportionately as far as they will go. They will not meet the require. ments fully, but they might be allotted proportionately among the owners whose boats have been requisitioned, the result of which has involved those companies in very heavy expense. It would be only doing in another way what the Admiralty are undertaking to do now inasmuch as they have given an undertaking to meet the extra cost involved in keeping up the obligations which the contractor could have met with his own bosts if he had been left undisturbed.

(Chairman.) I will tell you that that was considered and we went into the question, but we came to the conclusion that it was most difficult to do that with any degree of fairness. And even if we had done that we should have provided for probably all the big firms, and we should have had some of the smaller firma entirely left out of it.

Mr. McLeod) These contractors will have dealings both with the small and large users, and it will be their business to deal with all their customers.

(Chairman.) I quite see that, and that was thought of and discussed, but we came to the conclusion after very serious consideration, after we had seen you before, that we could not work that out.

*(Mr. McLeod.) I imagined it had been considered, but I am rather alarmed at this outlook. Mr. Watson has made it clear that his company require nearly

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[Continued.

30,000 tons a week more than they are getting. The carrying capacity of these boats is only a little in excess of that.

(Chairman.) I should think so. I will not bind my- self to that figure. I think that is what we are going to get out of them. You can calculate for yourselves. You have an average of 2,000 tons, say 1,800 tons dead weight, and we have about 30 boats to run. If you can turn them round once a week you ought to be able to get that amount.

(Mr. MaLeod.) There is a fear that the men with longest purse will get best served.

(Chairman.) I hope not.

We are

giving our agent very strict orders that he is, as far as he can, to see that the boats are allocated fairly.

(Mr. McLeod.) Mr. Burnett on my left, who has had many years' experience in Newcastle and the shipping of coal to London, is of opinion that if you fixed a reasonable figure, say 4., which until a few weeks ago was quite a high rate, it would not be detrimental in any way to the trade. It might bring what is a moat artificial figure down to its more legitimate point; and if under certain conditions you are going to say you will not take the rich man's offer of the 7., but will let the other customer, who needs it more, have the boat at 5. or 4s. 6d., or even 3s., then we are not going to see the ordinary law of supply and demand adhered to strictly.

(Chairman.) I am afraid we cannot. That is the absolutely weak point of the whole scheme. But I am hoping that that is not auch a difficult matter to get over as the other question to divide the boats up into sa infinitesimal apportionment.

(Mr. Burnett.) Can you make a proportion sum of it and give them in accordance with their requirements? (Chairman.) That is what we hope to do as far as

we can.

by

(Mr. Watson.) Would application be accompanied a statement of your position? The position varies very much. I dare say some companies in London have got a considerable length of stock and others who are nearly run out. A company with seven weeks' stock applies, for instance-

(Chairman.) We have the return here from the Board of Trade which gives the position this week for every company in London-electric lighting and gas companies. I can tell exactly from this how they stand at the present moment, and how they are likely to stand. The moment we get into operation we shall be able to tell exactly how matters are going.

(Mr. Watson.) It will be regulated to that extent. A six weeks' company and a two weeks' company send in a bid for tonnage, and I take it your agents would ssy the two weeks' people have the preference P

(Chairman.) Precisely.

(Mr. Watson.) And, of course, the question of freight is a delicate one, but that would be the governing feature. The two weeks' person would have the privilege.

(Chairman.) Absolutely. Then there is a further complication in this way, that there are a certain number of these companies which are in the habit of drawing their supplies entirely by rail. Some of them get none at all by rail. I take a company here abso. lutely at random, the Ealing Borough Council. Their consumption is not large, but they have been getting it all by rail; at the present moment they any they cannot get any. I suppose they would like to get coal by sen, if they could.

(Mr. Watson.) May I take it one step further, because we have not an opportunity of meeting and discussing the matter, and it in a very important question. Here is a six weeks' company and a two weeks' company come in at the same time with a bid, and the six weeks' company for some reason or other wanting, as everybody wants, to make itself safe. makes a bid of 7a. 6d.; the other makes a bid of 6s.. or 3., or 4s.

(Chairman.) You say the company that has a large stock overbida the company that has got a small stock. That is what you want to say, is it not P

(Mr. Watson.) Yes.

13 January 1915.]

MINUTES OF EVIDENCE.

Mr. J. G. BELL and 14 Others.

(Chairman.) Well, although it is anathema to the doctrine of supply and demand, I think the short-stock company would get the boat.

(Mr. Watson.) Then, of course, you would take a big step. There must, therefore, be a guiding figure as to maxima. If you are going to follow the law of supply and demand your six weeks' company will get it.

(Chairman.) But, you see, the point is this, is it not? The measure of your requirements is very largely the measure of the price that you are willing to pay. Is not that so?

"(Mr. Watson.) That is perfectly true, and if wa were ordinary traders who could share their responsi- bilities, I should say you are on perfectly sound ground, but we are not ordinary traders. We are bound down by the law, and not only bound down, but it would be an unthinkable catastrophe if anything went wrong with London lighting. Therefore you put upon us a certain very serious burden, if we are going to have to fight one with the other in order to do our duty, because that is what it comes to. Some of us must come into the market very soon, and that is why I press, because these boats muy not perhaps bo ready for a week or ten days.

(Chairman.) I hope to get one out which will carry 7,000 tons; I hope we may be able to get her away either at the end of the week or early next week, and I hope from then to be able to get boats running con- tinually as fast as we can get them in. We have already begun. We have not wasted time since I saw you last. We have taken steps to get the boats ready as fast as we can. I sincerely hope that the greater number of boats will be running within ten days.

(Mr. Watson.) Are you going to provide the crews? I suppose we have no responsibility with regard to

that

(Chairman.) No. If it were not for the crews I could get the boate running to-morrow.

(Mr. Watson.) There are a great many men being trained as soldiers in the Naval Reserve at the present moment.

(Chairman.) You had better talk to Mr. Churchill about that.

(Mr. Watson.) I know something about it, and I know some of them would be very good for this work.

(Chairman.) I think they would.

(Mr. F. Luckett.) Muy I nak you a question with regard to contractors like ourselves? Are we to give a declaration to these gentlemen that we require a boat to load in the Forth, say, 1,500 or 2,000 tons, that we require 300 tons for such and such a firm and 400 tous for such another firm, and 500 tons for such another firm, or are we simply to say we want a boat from the Forth to London for public services? Are we to give a declaration as to whom we wish the coal for?

(Chairman.) I have not considered that point, and I would rather like to think it over to see the best way of meeting it. It is a perfectly legitimate question to nak and it wants an answer, but. I do not know that I would like to commit myself at the present moment to But I will say exactly how yon should deal with it. give you an answer.

(Mr. F. Lockett.) Unless we make a declaration, what is to prevent a gentleman in Newcastle of a speculative turn of mind coming and saying to those gentlemen: ** I want a boat for London and I will pay 7a.”—or_if the rate in 108.- I will give 11s. " He has no trade. but he hopes to get it.

(Chairman.) I do not want to bring that in.

Mr. P. Lockett.) No; but unless a declaration has to be made, it is open for a gentleman in Newcastle to make a bid for these steamers against me, bring the rual to London, and when he gets it here take it to my customer and sell it behind my back.

(Chairman.) I think the answer will probably be that you will have to make a declaration, but I cannot answer it decisively till I have considered it in all its bearings. I think probably that is how it will be.

(Mr. Hamilton Greig.) If we have to disclose our business to a likely competitor by making a declaration that such and such a company want coal, it putting him in a very good position in regard to future yours.

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(Chairman.) I do not think so. It is quite possible that I may make some such arrangement that whatever declaration you make will be a confidential one, and will not be put on the market.

(Mr. Hamilton Greig.) You mentioned that the schedule which you have in your hand was only in regard to gas and electric companies, but there are hundreds of other customers who are of some im- portance, anyhow.

(Chairman.) It is the consideration of hundreds of other customers which you speak of that is forcing me to leave the thing open. If we only had the gas aud electric light companies to deal with I should not mind a bit; I could manage the thing perfectly well. But there is an enormous amount of other interests which have to be considered, and they all have to have their fair share.

(Mr. Hamilton Greig.) The whole supply is all boiled down to perhaps half a dozen or a dozen names. Your dealings will not have to be with the small men.

(Chairman.) No, I know that.

(Mr. Hamilton Greig.) I think those of us in this room practically represent the important coal trade in London.

(Mr. Roper.) If that is so- and I should think it is probably so-have not you got the matter a little bit in your own hands? As the Chairman says, our object is not to force the biggest price. Have not you got it a little bit in your own hands by putting your heads together and some of you saying: "We are not going to bid for a boat this week," and so reduce competition for a particular boat? It will then go for a lower freight.

(Mr. Hamilton Greig.) But we all do want the, boats. I could deal with more than the lot.

(Mr. Roper.) You could agree together among yourselves as to what you consider a fair apportion- ment of what might be in the market at the moment, and the competition being less the freights would be less.

(Mr. Hamilton Greig.) I hoped it might be possible to put it in the hands of the London trade, and not let it go through a Newcastle house.

(Mr. F. Lockett.) It is no use leaving it to us if you are going to allow a man who wants to get a business in London to fix a boat up and bring coal here on speculation.

(Chairman.) We do not want that to happen. (Mr. F. Lockett.) That is why it is so difficult for us to arrange among ourselves. If we could arrange with you I think it would be very much better.

(Chairman.) But then you must remember this point, that, important as London is, Loudon is not the only city that we have to serve.

(Mr. F. Lockett.) Could not you allocate a certain number of these boats to London and a certain number to the large firms on the South Coast P

(Chairman.) It means such a difficulty in working them in. We shall be probably able to work the ships in with a free hand all round. That is really the point. (Mr. F. Lockett.) To my mind this declaration, as Mr. Hamilton Greig saya, is a very important thing. Whatever secrecy you may keep, it means that in an office in Newcastle the whole of every merchant's business in London is at the disposal of those men and a lot of clerks,

(Chairman) No, I do not think so. I do not think it would mean that, because whatever may be given in the form of a decluration, or whatever is stated, in the ordinary course of events neither that nor your bids are made public to all the clerks. If there is any question about it there is not the least reason why you should not make the declaration to us.

(Mr. F. Lockett.) Quite so.

(Chairman.) You can send in what you want to the secretary here, and that will meet the difficulty of the bids being made public.

(Mr. P. Lockelt ) I should feel much happier if I felt that the whole business could be worked with this Committee instead of with Newcastle.

(Chairman.) If you could divide us up into abont one hundred pieces you might succeed in doing that, but otherwise not. We shall instruct our manager

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