PUBLIC RECORD OFFICE
Reference :-
CEC.O. 885
24 PUBLIC RECORD OFFICE, LONDON
ALLY WITHOUT PERMISSION OF THE BE REPRODUCED PHOTOGRAPHIC- | COPYRIGHT PHOTOGRAPH—NOT TO
24
14 December 1914.]
OVERSEA PRIZE DISPOSAL, COMMITTEE:
Mr. J. LowREY.
any rough idea of the percentage which your charge generally bears to the cost of doing it? We do not As a matter of fact charge on the basis of expenses.
We charge in proportion, or what we do is this. attempt to charge in proportion to the trouble, the expense and the risk, and so on, with the view at the end of the year to having our accounts on the right side. When one says on the right side, I mean a moderate margin of profit, because we have to have a considerable fund in hand. Sometimes we are very largely in advance. I put into my pocket our report for last year, and I find that the money passing through our hands in the cases we dealt with amounted to 580,0001. The margin of profit, after paying our working expenses, was 2,000. That is, 2.0007, was added to our capital. I am sorry I have not got here our actual expenses for the year, but it is a fairly large sum. We have a very large staff and a somewhat But it is not based on percentage. expensive one.
It is based on the amount of trouble that a particular thing involves, and to some extent on the amount that we are under advance, and things of that kind. I do not know what is at the back of your mind, as to what would be our charge over and above actual expenses for dealing with a thing of this kind.
489. I do not wish to bind you down to anything e act, but to try to get, for my own information, some idea of the relation of what is paid to what is actually expended It is difficult to know exactly what the trouble in this case might happen to be.
490. (Chairman.) There is one thing you might do for us straight away, and that is to try to get into touch with the insurance people ?--If you like I will cable to-night to Australia. This ship was first bound to Fremantle, I think.
491. Yes That is not a very good port to com- municate with. Do you happen to know which port she had most cargo for?
492. Yes, we have that?--Melbourne or Sydney are the ports I would rather communicate with, as we have more intelligent and experienced agents there.
493. You had better take that list with you. You see there are these three ships which have to be dealt with Yes. There is a large proportion of cargo for Fremantle and Adelaide. I see. At Melbourne and Sydney the agents have more experience in dealing with matters of this kind and they are a little more central Bs regards getting into touch with the underwriters.
494. The Apolda" is almost entirely Melbourne und Sydney?—Yes, I was looking at the Birkenfels.” Has any communication been made to anyone in the shape of agents out there?
495. (Mr. Tennyson.) We have not communicated with any private person, but there has been con- siderable correspondence between the Chambers of Commerce at Cape Town and in Australia, and the banks have been interested in it, a that I do not know what may have been done?--I wanted to get the kind of indication which I could give to our agents us to the parties they should communicate with, or the channel through which they e uld do it most quickly.
498. We have been in communication with the Governor-General of the Commonwealth all the time. I do not know throngh whom he has been making his inquiries, but I should think they would tell you.
[Continued.
do not know what the proper department is. I should think it would probably be External Affairs?--If they have to go to the Government, if I merely indicated that they should communicate with the Government authorities it would be for them to worry out the right department, and they would do that. Then they would also get into touch with the underwriters so far na they could, and see whether some general approval of the scheme could not be forthcoming.
497. (Chairman.) Exactly. That is what I want. The two points I want to get at are these: to get into communication with the underwriters, to carry on the present insurance?—Yes, to continue the insurance.
498. And to try and get a guarantee fund with regard to moving the cargo ?--Yes.
499. That is to say to get the big consignees to put up a guarantee fund which will cover our expenses?— Yes. I will sand a very full cable to Australia to-night with a view to seeing whether we can get something on those lines, and I think I might send that cable to Melbourne alone and instruct our agents there to communicate with the agents at the other ports, and with the Government department, and also as far as possible with the banks and with the insurance companies. It is the kind of thing that one would do if it were a case arising out of an ordinary casualty atch as we are dealing with, and I think it is the safe thing to do in this case.
500. Of course the cnble will be at the Government expense --Do you mean that it need not be paid at at? It does not go free?
(Mr. Roper.) It has to be paid for.
(Chairman) Perhaps at preferential rates.
301. (Mr. Roper.) If you send to us the cablegram which you like to send, we can get the reduced rate for it?s it worth doing that? I could get the cable off to-night,
(Mr. Roper.) Well, it may be an expensive cable. gram.
(Mr. Tennyson.) We can send it from here.
(Mr. Roper.) It is a thing we often do from the Board of Trade, too.
(Witness.) I was thinking that probably the cost of the cablegram is not a very important matter in con. nection with this. Time may be of importance, but if to-morrow would do
502, (Chairman.) Yes, I think it would ?-It is the kind of cablegram one would prefer to send in long- hand instead of coding it. Ordinarily a message of this kind I should send at the deferred rate which we could get, so that it need not be very costly.
503. Then I do not think there will be much dif ference ?-I should think we had better send it, subject to what you think. If we send it at the deferred rate it gets through almost as quickly and it would be I do not think the delivered in Melbourne to-morrow. expense of cabling in a thing of this kind is a very serious matter.
504. It is a very small item?-Yes, a small item in connection with the whole thing. Then I will do that. Of course, these small expenses are unimportant. If we can assist in any way I shall be only too pleased. 505. Then will you communicate with Mr. Wise- That cable man-Yes, as soon as we get an answer.
I shall go to-night. The witness withdrew.
MINUTES OF EVIDENCE.
Thursday, 17th December, 1914.
Evidence taken at the Tenth Meeting.
MEMBERS PRESENT:
VICE-ADMIRAL SIE EDMOND J. W. SLADE, K.C.I.E., K.C.V.O. (in the Chair).
Mr. G. B. BARSTOW, C.B.
Mr. W. J. EVANS.
Mr. T. H. HOLT.
Mr. H. W. MALKIN.
Mr. G. ROPER. Mr. C. B. TENNYSON. Mr. C. D. WAKELY.
Mr. LEWIS HUTH WALTEES attended.
508. (Chairman.) I think you are interested in one of the detained ships at Alexandria P-Yes, the **Annaberg" principally.
507. What have you on board her ?—We have about 1,700 bales of wool.
508. Hive you any idea what the value of the cargo is P-About 30,000. If you me in the totul cargo, I do not know. I understand there are about 9,000 bales altogether. It does not all belong to us, but I understand there are 9,000 bales of wool on the ship. That would be roughly about 180,0001, or a little lean.
509. You do not know what the remainder of the cargo is P-I believe there are some hides from Australia.
510. Do you know who the consignees of those are? -I do not know at all. I know of a firm of brokers in London who are interested in hides on the ship. I think.
511. There are not many consignees, are there ? --That I could not say. We are not interested in the hides ourselves. I only know for certain this one firm of brokers. They may represent several interests; I do not know.
512. What is the weight of the wool, in tonnage ? -I am not quite sure whether I can tell you that.
513. I am only asking you because I want to ree what proportion it is likely to be ?-I will see if I have the weight stated here at all
514. What is the average weight of a bale of wool ? -That I am not prepared to tell you because I am only
bunker.
515. It is a very large proportion ?—I think quite a fair proportion.
516. We would like to get this ship home, but of course we have to be guaranteed against expenses? -What expenses? I suppose the original freight would stand as it is!
517. Hay the freight been paid?—The freight has mostly not been paid, I think; it may have been paid in some cases.
518. If it is not paid it is against the original freight? Yes,
519. But you would have to sign a general average bond to cover any excess. I do not know whether we Some could collect the whole of the freight or not may be paid in advance and that we could not touch P-Quite so.
320. There may be an excess, in fact there probably will be, over the freight because she has been running up charges which will have to be met before she can b3 cleared. Of course it is expensive to bring the ship honie because we shall have to send a crew out for her P-What sort of percentage would the general average be? It would not be very excessive, not more than 10 per cent., I suppose?
521. I could not tell you because we have not gone into the figures yet. What you would have to cover 11 against are practically the out-of-pocket expenses in paying for what the ship has become liable up to date, the expenses of sending a crew out and bringing the ship home, and the insurance of the ship. That is
+ 25140 - Ev 1 &0
25
Mr. R. A. WISEMAN (Secretary).
practically all, I think ?—That would not come out of the freight?
We
522. Oh, yes. It is only the balance by which the sum total of all that exceeds the freight?—I see. should be prepared to do that. If the ship had stayed in her original state and been a ship that was taking refuge in the canal as she was to start with we should have had to pay more than that probably.
523. You would have been much worse off, or you would not have got it at all?-We might not. Wo have not succeeded in getting anything yet. We have gone on from bad to worse in every case, and we have not got anything,
524. Would you be prepared to try and get in touch with the other consignees?-Certainly, if we can find them out. I think we probably can.
525. I think you probably can ?-- We can, if only through our agent there.
526. Before we can move you see we must get an agreement with all the consignees, naturally?—Yes. The thing is rather urgent because the last telegram we have from the man who is representing us there is this: *** Annaberg' starts discharging under a week "unless you cable contrary. Will probably ship wool "London, Albatross "."' We do not know what the "Albatross " is, whether it is the General Steam Naviga. tion vessel or not. There are half a dozen “Albatrosses.“ 527. It will probably coat you more to send the wool home in that way?—Yes. We have been trying to avoid this. That is why we wrote.
528. We are perfectly willing to move the ship and bring her home if we can get the consent of the con- signees to indemnify us against the expenses. I do not know how much freight there is owing or how much has been paid. but naturally the freight which is owing will be set off against the expenses?-I am not perfectly certain, but I think in the case of Australian wool it is not paid beforehand; I think it is always paid on arrival,
529. I think that is the simplest way?—Yes, Very well. We will try to find out the other consigners and get their consent.
530. Get their consent to indemnify us against expenses P-Yes. With regard to expenses there would be general average; expenses not covered by freight
531. You need not trouble to write it down; we will send you the notes -We had better telegraph at once and stop the discharge.
332. (Mr. Malkin.) I think we shall have to tele- graph to stop the discharge?—I suppose the Prize Court is amenable to anything you tell them. We do not quite understand what the rolatione between you and the Prize Court are.
533. (Chairman.) The relations between us are these, that if the Crown wishes to take a cargo the Crown can ask for a release, but the better procedure is for you to prove your title to the cargo out there? --I think we can do that.
534. Under any circumstances if you want to get hold of your cargo you cannot do it without proving your title to it ?—What we have been urging from the
D