MINUTES OF EVIDENCE.
17
PUBLIC RECORD OFFICE
Reference :-
mmiimmim C.O. 885
24 PUBLIC RECORD OFFICE, LONDON
ALLY WITHOUT PERMISSION OF THE BE REPRODUCED PHOTOGRAPHIC- COPYRIGHT PHOTOGRAPH—NOT TO
7 December 1914]
Mr. T. L. DEVITT and Mr. E. VERNEK.
(Chairman.) I should be glad if you would. 320. (Mr. Tennyson.) I will (Mr. Devitt.) The chief difficulty would be in finding a crew."
321. (Chairman.) That is exactly the difficulty that I want to shuffle off; I do not want to have it. I want to put it on somebody else's shoulders ?-They get very high wages out there. (Mr. Verner.) A very large number of the charterers would have no facilities and no experience of handling vessels in the way you suggest, taking them over just as a hull and running them for their business. A great many of them have considerable experience in taking a vessel up in the ordinary time-charter way, in which the owner provides the crew, and all the charterer has to do is to provide the means for loading the cargo, and finding the coul A very large for the voyage which he is going to run. number of charterers have daily experience of that. But the number of charterers who could take a vessel up as a bull and then find her crew, stores &c, would be quite a limited number, because they would have no staff and no means of working that part of the business. (Mr. Devilt.) But it would not be difficult for the firm chosen to do the insurance at a price agreeable to the Government; it would not be difficult for them to find the coal at their own contract price with the mine owners, and it would not be difficult to victual them on the lowest scale, as is done with their own ships, All those things could be done by a straightforward man in the way, but the difficulty would be to take the responsibility for the voyage.
322. What I had in my mind is, I think, a little different from what you have in yours. I have in my mind that a ship-owning firm should take over the vessel, find the crew, find all the stores, insure her and run ber. Then that firm would put her up for charter or use her in their own business, which ever might suit them better?-Thera would be more difficulty in getting officers. We should have to send a whole crowd of officers out from here. We are losing our very best We have had to appoint men for the Naval Reserve. juniors up to the higher positions. We generally They have carry five officers besides the Master.
taken all our very best men for the transports.
323. I am afraid that will be a difficulty all through? -Yes, that would mean delay, and in the case of merchant ships it would wean demurrage, which would be a serious thing (Mr. Venner.) If they are going to take them up on the time basis, and then there is all this difficulty and delay taking place, it will make it a frightfully dangerous venture.
324. That is what I want to find out about?-Firms who could do it would be a very limited because they have not the staffs to handle all that part of it which Take the ouse of a they do not generally handle. company like our own. We have a big staff in Australia for dealing with our boats every week and every fort- night as they come in; they could take the business, but they are not a firm who are in the habit of taking tonnage to work in that way. They know what it costa them to work their own vessels in and out, and occasionally they charter vessels for this voyage.
325. Then the vessel is handed over to them as a going concern?-Yes, but it would be a very risky business for a firm like oura doing all that part of the owners' business, and taking up vessels for a general market business, not for their own line, and paying a fixed price for them over a period; in fact it would be a business that I would strongly advise our company to have nothing whatever to do with. The firms who would take that sort of business up would be a very limited number, because there are so few of them who would have the staff that could handle both sides. The merchants could handle them on one side, and the shipowners have the staffs which could handle the other aide of it.
326. It is the shipowner site that I want to get hold of P-Yes; but for a shipowner, who bas probably a line of steamers, to take up a lot of steamers for gener. trade, not for his own line ouly, where he knows what to do with them, to see what he could do with them in a general way of business, would be a very great risk.
[Continued.
What
327. Yes; of course that is the difficnity. we are hoping to find is shipowners who will take up the vessels and use them in their own line in place of vessels which have been taken up ?—(Mr. Devitt.) I had the impression that all these interned vessels would be sent over here and sold, and that would be an end of it. It is simply to get them home.
328. We do want to do that to a great extent ?— How long do you think this would go on ?
329. We were proposing to charter the ships out for six months. I do not know whether the war will be over by then or not; it is a matter which we cannot say, but we shall probably know more about it by that time?-(Mr. Verner.) Of course, you would have the arrangement that re-delivery was to be given to you at some particular plase.
330. Yes That again would make a great diff- culty. Of course it is not a hard and fast six months. but about six months, and that again would make a difficulty, that unless he employed them in his own actual line he would be barred from using them profitably, for instance for, a voyage to San Francisco, and grain home here, and then to Australia. That is a three-cornered route which is a much more profitable business as a rule, and would help a man to charter.
What is 331. Would that necessarily bar that? the period covered by that?-Six months could not do that round of course.
332. What is the period?-Roughly speaking it would be five to six months to Australia, out and home. (Mr. Devitt.) With the exception of the fast steamers. Suppose it loaded with coal at New South Wales and then went to San Francisco, then you would be a fortnight loading. (Mr. Verner.) And then 35 days voyage up, and then discharging on the other side would take you about 10 to 12 days. Then you would probably have to go up from San Francisco to Portland for wheat. You might get barley in San Francisco but probably you would have to go to one of the northern ports, and then there would be getting the cargo home. She could come through the Panama Canal of course. It used to be a 70 days' voyage before, but they have been taking as much as 50 days by the canal ronte. (Mr. Devil.) It would take more than six months. (Mr. Verner.) There would have to be more than the usual elasticity. There are plenty of time charterers who take ships up to 12 months or two years with a view of handling them all over the world wherever they got a chance. Then there is the other time charterer who just takes them a round trip out and home, or the single voyage. To take advantage of those the period for which they would take the ship over would have to be more elastic because of the restrictions, and most of these only charter vessels with crews, &c. all found?
My own 333. Yes, but that is another matter. feeling is that the Government ought to be slip- owners, They ought to be advised by those who know their business. Keep the reine in this country. in this house, if you like, and give your instruc. tions accordingly, but let somebody advise you as to each ship and her position, and what can be done with her. I think on the whole the Government would do far better than throwing them all on the market in the way you have suggested, and charter them to other people. You could charter individual ships or load them as the case might be. (Mr. Verner.) There would be a much bigger market. The other is a restricted market. (Mr. Devilt.) I do not wish to give that as
a deliberate opinion now. Perhaps I might have time to think over all that has been said.
334. I should be very glad if you would ?--I do not want to put it forward as a personal matter too much I am glad to give any advice or assistance I can, whether I have anything to do with it or not, but I think I can see a better way for the Government to do it than the one which you have suggested.
335. Of course it means starting a new department
as it were, just for temporary purposes ?—Yes.
336. And that is always a difficulty P—(Mr. Verner.} You would have to rely on the person employed there is no question about that.
337. It comes to this, that you recommend that we should go to a firm or firms of shipowners and sy
7 December 1914.]
Mr. T. L. DEVITT and Mr. E. VERNER.
Will you run these steamers for us ?"-Mr. Devilt.) Yer.
338. We are to stand responsible for the outgoings, and to make what we can on the freights and pay them a commission ?-Yes. I think that might work if you got the right firm or the right individual who would give his time to it.
339. And you think that would work better than to say to this firm or these firms: "Will you take over these ships and run them?"-Yes, I think he would consult his market and say exactly: "I can get you so much for the ship," and give you advice as he would to an owner. We always used to load on the berth ourselves for many years. (Mr. Verner.) Ho can eilculate and tell you about what the earnings of that bat would be, and something about what her expenses will be, and what the market is. He would tell you what the market price of a vessel of that type would he to-day. I see there is rather a variety of boats here in this list.
340. There is a tremendous variety ?—It makes it much more difficult for one or two firms to take them up and run as owners on their own account.
341. I had no intention of that. I was hoping that several firuis woul task for them as they require ships? --(Mr. Dewitt.) They would have to give you a very low price to make it worth their while to take the risk.
342. What would you call a very low pries?—— (Mr. Vera:r.) I should not like to say. It is a thing I have never had put before me in my experiencs.
343. We have never had to deal with alips before in this way?—No; it would have to be gong into to say what margin could possibly be got out of it. A man taking them up in that way wild simply have to discount for the risk he was running, and a lot of them are risks which he has never ruu in his life before, aud he does not know what they are.
Wherass if you employ a broker to do it you do get the benefit of the full market price of the day, of the ship.
344. Oh, yes. I quite agree with you that you do, but as I said before, the whole of my difficulty is that the Government has no machinery ?—(Mr. Devilt.) No but that broker could say to someone in Sydney:
• What will you give me for this ship?" and get the best price out of that man, and the man would be responsible for the freight.
345. My diffealty is the actual provision of the men, the officers, the stores, the ducking, the cleaning, and all the hundred and one things which have to le looked after before a ship is ready to be put up for chartering?(Mr. Verner.) Those are the risks. They are a new risk to many of the people whose business it is to charter ships. (Mr. Devitt.) But do not let us pour cold water on the suggestion. Let us think it
out.
346. (Mr. Roper.) You are suggesting that this in- between man should have all the labour. He is simply to escape financial responsibility?—Yes.
347. We should not want a staff to do it?—No; you would want a superior officer. I imagine you would have some Admiralty official of high standing who would be the director, and the man would have to call on him at his pleasure and give him information and say, “* You can do that,” or “Yon cannot do that.“ (Mr. Verner.) He would have to give you on paper what the estimates are.
[Continued.
(Mr. Devitt.) Some of them have. In Australia we have to find our own crews, but we engage our arewa for the round voyage. Unfortunately they are paid off every voyage on their return. I should like to have continuou- service myself, but we have to find our crews on this side. and they go round. Just now there is a scarcity on this side. Then there is Trades Unionism out there, and you never know what they will charge you. They put up their rates. (Mr. Verner.) I know nothing about crews or stores, but if we had a vessel like this in our hands to deal with, the store part of it and crew end of it would have to be dealt with by the other department, and they would have to give their estimates of what could be done. A man who is in the position that I am in. who dosa the chartering, would have to take up his end and the result of the whole thing would have to be put on paper before you as the person responsible That is what I mean. The various departments of a big office of the type as ours is, would have to provide the staff for the various things that you want done, and produce them the same as is done now to many au He makes his broker bring him in an estimate of the various voyages which he is suggesting for his vessel, and aided to the ordinary freight estimates, the broker would have to get from the victualling depart- ment some estimate of what could be done. (Mr. Devitt.) I should not like our firm to undertake the ludian part of it, for instance, or the Cape, except simply as u matter of advice. Personally we could not do justice to that. (Mr. Verner.) We could only handle the victualling and stores and chartering, but not actual loading. (Mr. Deritt.) I see what you want. You want to be a shipowner without any loss.
owner.
39. That is exactly the position of the Government. I shall be very glad if you will think the matter over. I shall be glad to hear of any method which occurs to you, after considering what we have been talking about. of enabling the Government to deal with this business in an economic and efficient way ?--I quite understand. (Mr. Tennyson.) I have information about Australia. These are the ships which are definitely known to be taken up. (Handing a list to Chairman). Here I have the ships which have been requisitioned by the Govern-
mnt.
350. (Chairman.) They are the "Melbourne,” the "Sumatra," the Pflaz" the "Hobart," and the "Coustatt ---{Mr. Devitt.) Are they all being loaded on behalf of the Government?
351. They are requisitioned for transports. (List handed to Mr. Deviti.)-I see the Osnabruck," the "Oberhausen" and the Neumuniache," apparently are being lauded for outward cargo.
332. (Mr. Tennyson.) By the Government, I imagine? -With cargo?
353. Yes?-I understood that they had been distributed among the various companies, and I should think they would probably be distributed with an arrangement as to rates.
354. (Chairman.) I think that is very probable?→ The "Sumatra" is a very fine ship. Is she coming to this country?
355. Yes, she is coming over. Well, I shalt be very grateful to you if you will think the matter over P-Wo will do so.
(Mr. Tennyson.) Those are the ships we know about. for certain. There may be others in the same position, in fact I am pretty certain there are, but those are the only ones we have definite information about,
The witnesses withdrew.
348. (Chairman.) But the broker you are going to employ has no experience of providing crews?—
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