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PUBLIC RECORD OFFICE

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PEPEL CO. 885

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24 PUBLIC RECORD OFFICE, LONDON

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OVERSEA PRIZE DISPOSAL COMMITTEE:

10 December 1914.]

Thursday, 10th December, 1914.

Evidence taken at Eighth Meeting.

MEMBERS PRESÉNT :

VICE-ADMIRAL SIR EDMOND J. W. SLADE, K.C.I.E., K.C.NO. (in the Chair).

Mr. W. J. EVANS.

Mr. T. H. HOLT.

Mr. H. W. MALKIN.

Mr. G. ROPER.

Mr. C. TENNYSON.

Mr. C. D. WAKELY.

Mr. R. A. WISEMAN (Secretary).

[Sir H. JOHNSON and Mr. HOTBLACK, of the firm of Waltons & Co., were also present.]

Captain MUIRHEAD COLLINS attended.

356, (Chairman.) With regard to the ships detained at Capetown that the Commonwealth Government wish to move to Australia, can you give us any information as to what they wish done They wish the curgo to go on there, and they are prepared to put prize crews on board.

357. We will do that ?--I do not know whether you have the telegrams from the Commonwealth.

from the High (Mr. Tennyson.) We had one Commissioner to-day.

(Witness.) I have it here. Does it answer the question?

358. (Cirman.) No, not entirely? What is the point it does not answer?

359. It says: "Government fails to see why similar procedure could not be adopted in case of those ships to that adoptel in case of German ships detained at Fremantle." Can you tell us what that course was? What did they do? We have not the information in the office.

360. What we propose to do is to send crews out for these ships, to move them from the Cape with their cargo on board to Australia. First of all we will take the cargo out of the Hamm" and leave the Java cargo behind; take it also out of the Apolda," and fill up the Apolda" with all Australian cargo; then send the ..Birkenfels" and "Apolda" on to Australia with the cargo.

A certain amount of that curgo of course is likely to be enemy cargo. With regard to the Birkenfels " a certain amount may be enemy cargo, and it is in the Prize Court in fact the whole of the cargo in the Birkenfels "is tainted as enemy cargo, and there has to be proof that it is not. The moment that is done we can send the whole thing on. We can anticipate the proving of the ownership of the cargo if the owners, or rather the claimants, are willing to give a bond to to court to represent the value of the cargo, to be proved at a later date. Then the whole thing can go and be delivered to the people in Australia who claim it without any further trouble. The court cannot release that cargo, having once got it there, without a bond or undertaking of some kind to represent the value of the cargo. We may be able to make arrange- ments with the court to release cargo which is obviously innocent of course, there must be a lot but on the other hand there probably will be a certain amount which is, on the face of it, not innocent, and that is the cargo which is going to cause trouble?-That is the indemnity that is required by the Admiralty, is it

361. Yes. They make a statement here that the We cost of proving the cargo is going to be 10,000Z. are going to make inquiries as to why it is going to cost so much. They appear to be charging very high fres at the Cape for some reason or other. I think that the trouble is that the Australian Government have not quite realised why it is necessary to effect this proof, and the proof cannot be effected without the documents P-How long a delay does that involve.

362. It will not involve any delay at all if they will only give the court an indemnity?-lf the owners would at once give the court an indemnity?

363. Yes, and it seems to me the way to deal with that is this. The claimants of the cargo are all in Australia practically?—Yea.

364. It is for somebody in Australia to get a meeting of the claimants for this cargo and say: 10 The risk "Now, will you agree to stand this risk?"

is very small-We should have to cable out to the Government?

365. Yes, I think so, to make it quite clear ?—I think Sir Chorge is coming to see you to-morrow morning, Mr. Tennyson.

366, (Mr. Tennyson.) Yes?--It would be no use doing anything to-night.

(Sir Henry Johnson.) If we could get anything signed by all the consignees before the ship sailed we get over the difficulty of the bond, because then they would agree not to have their cargo until it had been released by the Prize Court, and in the meantime it would be warehoused unless they chose to release it. Then each person would have to release bis own cargo, and there would be no general bond. If time would permit of that it would be a very good thing.

(Chairman.) But there is a difficulty in connec tion with that as to whether the Court will accept it. No cargo can be released out of the Court, according to the present rules, without a bond being given for the value of that cargo.

(Sir Henry Johnson.) It is the difficulty of moving the ship really.—

(Mr. Tennyson.) No cargo to which title has not been proved?

(Chairman) Yes.

367. (Mr. Tennyson.) I think there has been some misconception in Australia about this point, and I would rather like to say that it is not only in order to put the value of the cargo into Court but because you Cannot ask the Court to release a parcel of cargo to a given person unless that given person shows he is entitled to it. It is a very simple proposition really. The Court has probably a copy of the Manifest with regard to most of this cargo. A.B. comes along and The Court says: "I want a parcel of that cargo." cannot release it without some proof being given that he is the owner, and that involves sending documents from Australia. That is the attitude the Court has adopted and I must say I think it is a reasonable attitude --That can be got over by the indemnity?

(Mr. Tennyson.) Yes. You will remember we have sent a telegram, Admirul?

(Chairman) Yes, we have.

(Mr. Tennyson.) Suggesting perhaps they might give an indemnity and guard themselves by refusing to surrender the cargo.

(Witness.) It seems to me better for the Govern ment to give the indemnity.

(Chairman.) That is what we hoped it would do. What we suggested was that they should give the indemnity, that they should take the cargo into their own keeping, and refuse to give it up to the claimants except on good proof. The proof will have to be given at Capetown. We cannot get over that difficulty, I am afraid, can we ?

MINUTES OF EVIDENCE.

Captain MUIRHEAD COLLINS.

(Witness.) That means sending the documents to Capetown?

(Mr. Tennyson.) I think it is very unlikely. would be very difficult,

It

́368. (Chairman.) Yes?—That would points raised by Sir Henry Johnson.

cover

the

(Sir Henry Johnson.) If the Commonwealth Govern- ment will give a general bond, and protect themselves in the way suggested that would do it,

(Chairman.) Yus.

(Mr. Tennyson.) Here is the telegram we sent out. Perhaps you would like to run your eye over it. (Handing document to the Chairman.)

(Sir Henry Johnson.) They could protect them- selves,

(Chairman.) This is the telegram you sent Mr. Tennyson?

(Mr. Tennyson.) Yes.

(Chairman.) "Telegram 26th November. External Affairs, to High Commissioner, prize ships, Cape " town.

I am advised that action of Capetown Prize Court strictly correct. Claims to cargo must be Until proved at Capetown at some time or other. claims proved cargo can only be released on bail given to the Court for full value, proceedings in "Prize Court continuing on evidence to be provided by claimants after release. Admiralty can and will requisition ships giving necessary guarantees to Capetown Court and will remain responsible for value till Court is satisfied. As to cargo, goods to which British or neutral claims are proved can be released immediately. Gools proved to belong to enemies can be requisitioned by Admiralty and dealt with in Australia. I hope shortly to be in position to complete agreement with shipping company for navi. gation of Birkenfels "with cargo and “ Apolda " with herown and Hamm's "Australiau cargo and delivery of cargo Australia. Only remaining cause of delay is failure of consignees to prove claims Capetown. Statement in External Affairs telegram that Common- wealth will undertake to control all cargo which will be only given up on cach, consignee paying his proportion of expenses will be of great assistance in earrying out of proposal. Matter would be much facilitated if Commonwealth would give bail Cape- town Court for all cargo to which claims not proved. Cargo thus released on bail would be delivered to consignees as per bills of lading on payment propor· tion of expenses and receipt of indemnity with banker's guarantee to cover bail. I assume that Commonwealth's offer to control cargo would include taking all these indemnities and guarantees and of u general release and indemnity to Admiralty in respect of all claims to cargo delivered. If this were agreed to I have little doubt that ships could be moved very shortly. As to statement in External Affairs telegram that consignees will attend to their "own insurance, unless Commonwealth Government is in touch with all consignees and each owner has agreed "to attend to his own insurance Admiralty would have *to arrauge insurance to cover possible liabilities. Contemplated agreement with shipping company includes insurance for whole cargo by company at expense of cargo and this is one of the heaviest items of company's charge."

(Witness.) Is that the one just gone?

(Mr. Tennyson.) No, it went some days ago. (Chairman.) That is a partial answer to it. I think they have not quite realised the whole of the meaning of that.

(Witness.) It seems to me very clear. The only addition you might have made is what you remarked just now.

369. (Chairman.) Now what we want to get the Australian Government to do to give us this bail, so

to speak, let us get on with moving the ship, but try and arrange with the consignees that they look after

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[Continued.

their own insurance, or alternatively give us bail again that we shall not be liable for the goods if they are lost, and also when the ship arrives in Australia to take over from us all liability with regard to the receipt and distribution of the cargo. It is a great difficulty for us here to deal with the distribution of the cargo in Australia?-Would it not simplify matters if the Commonwealth gave you a bond and then did the rest themselves? They could relieve you.

(Mr. Roper.) That is what we want.

370. (Chairman.) Yes, that is what we want?-They could indemuify themselves from the other people.

371. Yes, that is so. What we want is the Common. wealth Government to do on your side of the world what we are trying to do on this side ?-To put them- selves in your place there by freeing you here, and then they can cover themselves out there.

(Chairman.) Yes.

(Mr. Tennyson.) It is practically certain there is no enemy cargo on board, only somebody has to satisfy the Court.

(Witness.) That is the position you will settle with Sir George to-morrow? That is practically all you have

to tell him.

(Mr. Tennyson.) Yes.

372. (Chairman.) You have no further information in your office which will help us in this matter at all? -No, this is the last thing which came this afternoon.

373. (Mr. Tennyson.) You do not know how far the Commonwealth Government is in touch with the consignees No

374. In the telegram to which our telegram was a reply they said that the consignees would attend to their own insurance, and that seems to show that they entered into some kind of negotiation, anyhow some of the consignees did. The telegram which they sent to you rather goes back on that. They now Hay they want us to see to the insurance. Of course if they were in touch with all the consignees the position would be quite different?-Yes.

375. (Chairman.) The difference will be over 2,0007. in the cost if we have to attend to the insurance, that It is is, if the consignees do not look after their own. a considerable item ?--How does that increased cost arise?

376. Because the consignees can probably get their existing policies extended for a small sum I see.

377. Whereas we should have to effect a fresh insurance. So it is obviously to the advantage of the consignees to look after their own business at that end? Yes, I see what the situation is; and I think if Sir George had a consultation with Mr. Tennyson probably we could send another cablegram to-morrow.

378. When you cable out to them what I should like you to impress upon the Government out there would be that we want to get these ships on as quickly as we can because we want to get the ships into the trade of the country again so as to come back from Australia with cargoes. We do not want to keep all this tonnage tied up, and the sooner we can get it going again the better we shall be pleased. We want to get on. We are proposing to send grews out from liere, as that will probably be quicker than asking you to send crews back from the Cape to Australia. Then we shall probably arrange that the crews who will take the ships from the Cape to Australia would bring the ships back from Australia to this country with cargo? --I understand. You are inquiring about this 10,00077 379, Yes, we are going to ask about that, as to how it comes in ~I do not think I can be of much further use to you now.

380. I think that is all we can do? I will see Sir George after he has seen Mr. Tennyson.

(Mr. Tennyson.) I think we shall be able to agree to something.

(Chairman). As long as we can get on; that is the

point.

The witness withdrew,

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