PUBLIC RECORD OFFICE
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Reference :-
mmimmmtm C.O. 885
24 PUBLIC RECORD OFFICE, LONDON
ALLY WITHOUT PERMISSION OF THE BE REPRODUCED PHOTOGRAPHIC- COPYRIGHT PHOTOGRAPH-NOT TO
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26 November 1914]
OVERSEA PRIZE DISPOSAL COMMITTEE:
Mr. HUGRES and Mr. W. RICHARDS.
cargo is concerned, although it would involve a con. siderable amount of difficult work. But so far as the rest of the cargo is concerned. has Mr. Hughes to get sanction with regard to that?
(Mr. Tennyson.) No, that is all right. bother about that.
You need not
88. (Chairman.) That is absolutely free. The only people who have got to do that are the actual owners of the cargo-(Mr. Richards.) Wogli not there be a difficulty in the Court giving it up to Mr. Hughes? Supposing Mr. A. has presented his documents to the court and obtained release, it is only released to him. If somebody else applied for it ordinarily it would not be enough to release it to Mr. Hughes,
89. If you have two claimants for the same parcel of cargo, then it is a question of proof?-Supposing three-fourths of the cargo had been released in that way and Mr. Hughes says he wants it, but they say it is released to somebody else.
90. (Mr. Malkin.) If it has been released all you want to do is to take it away in the ship. It is only the cargo that has not been released that there is any trouble with?-I should have thought it meant release to the merchant of cargo at Cape Town.
91. (Mr. Tennyson.) There is this point, that before dealing with this cargo you should be satisfied that every owner of cargo in the vessel wants it to go on to Australia. That is the point, and that is the reason why I do not think an Act of Parliament would very much help in this case. You have still to get into touch with the cargo owners before you leave the port of detention ?-It does not quite cover the ground by took the release to Mr. Hughes. I should think if
you the cargo and got away with it that would be the best Give me way. Mr. Hughes.) I should think so too. instructions to take the cargo and get the ship under way and take the responsibility. You would find the thing would end happily and at a minimum of expense.
92. Mr. Tennyson.) If Mr. Hughes will indemnify us with regard to the cargo he can do anything he likes-(Mr Hughes.) I will do that for money, you It would be a know, because I can get it insured. very large sum of money, of course. But really if the Government would say: “ Now, there are the ships. Get them on to Australia and deliver the cargo in "accordance with the bills of lading, charging the merchants." it would be a very reasonable way of dealing with it, and you would find you would hear nothing more about it.
93. (Chairman.) I think that is highly probable, but just in the same way as you want to protect your. self against indefinite liabilities so we have to protect ourselves against all sorts of liabilities?—You are taking some very big risks to-day. That is not a very big one.
94. The conclusion we had better come to is this, that you should work put your scheme on these amended conditions and let us know what it comes to. and then if you can possibly get into touch with the insurance office and get them to move the owners, or get the documents sent out to Cape Town as soon as possible with instructions to the agents out there to get the cargo released as quickly as they can, I daresay by that time we shall have got something settled up?--Mr. Richards.) We had better write a sort of letter setting forth what we understand to be the procedure and indicating what we think would be a fair sun and the basis of apportionment.
95. Chairman.) Yes? (Mr. Hughes.) There is u difficulty in apportioning this between these ships?
Each 996. You must take the ships separately. ship must be taken separately and the apportionment of the sum will be according to the tonunge of the cargo?--Mr. Richards.) Or the freight?
97. (Chairman.) Yes?—(Mr. Hughes.) Supposing
"Hamm" out.
The
you were going to send the
Humm" has got 23,000l. worth of cargo on board. I should think that is very low value stuff. The freight of the "Hamm as it exists will be enormous. When you get to the Birkenfels," that has got a freight of 150,000, which is something to work on, ut the Hamm." which would cost just as much as the Birkenfels," is different.
[Continued.
98. 1 perfectly understand that?-I think we bare looked at these ships together. The consigueen of the "Apolda" would have to pay a great deal more than the consigners of the Birkenfels," (Mr. Richards.) Not in proportion to the freight. Supposing we take the freight ton-muensurement cargo so much, weight cargo so much. (Mr. Hughes.) It will cost almost ma much to get the "Apolda "out as the Hamm," perhaps more, because there is the shifting of cargo, and then we have not the amount of cargo to levy the dues on. Whether it is on a percentage basis or on a percentage of freight basis, that will be very much higher. It will cost a man with a ton of cargo in the "Apolda " a great deal more than the man who has a ton in the Birkenfels." (Mr. Richards.) No, I do not think so. The rates of freight do not differ very substantially from New York to Australia. But supposing they do differ, it is fairly proportioned to the original freight. not freight tons, but original freight. (Mr. Hughes.) If it costs 10,000l. to get the "Apolda "out and 10,0007, to get the Birkenfels" out. (Mr. Richards.) That is going on a wrong basis.
99. (Chairman.) That is the only basis we can work om P--(Mr. Hughes.) The "Apoldu” has got to pay
more.
4.
100. The basis we have to work on is that it will the cost so many thousands of pounds to move
Apolda "fron Cape Town to Australia. That sum will have to be divided up among the owners of the (Mr. Richards.) By the cargo which is moved.
Hamm " and the ** Apolla.”
101. The whole of the cargo which is moved in that particular ship, whether it comes out of the ship und is put into the Apolda" or not, does not matter. Then take the other ship, the Birkenfels." That will cost so many thousands of pounds, and that is divided up amongst the cargo owners of the Birkenfels." The amount to move the two ships will be approximately equal? But the landling of the cargo of 11,000 tona makes a difference. (Mr. Hughes.) But you have against that the handling of this cargo, which will be very expensive.
(Mr. Tennyson.) Had not we better take the "Bir- kenfels" separately?
102. (Chairman.) Yes, take the Birkenfels" and work that out! (Mr. Richards.) Shall we deal only with that?
(Chairman.) For the moment, yes.
103, (Mr. Tennyson.) Because there is no enemy cargo on that -(Mr. Hughes.) I think that is a good plan.
104. (Chairman) Deal only with that and let us have your proposition -(Mr. Hughes.) Have you any view as to the collection of this from the merchants?
105. The collection from the cargo owners would be before they can receive delivery? Have you any views as to its collection, whether it is on the freight or on the value? Of course, it is much easier to collect it on a percentage of freight. It is much the simpler way.
1986. I think so, and it is quite fair?---(Mr. Richards.) Here are the code Articles. I thought you were going to restore them to the same condition. I will leave that with you if it will interest you thanding document to the Chairman). They are collecting enormous deposits all over the world under this.
(Chairman.) I know. It is a regular plant, and that is why I say that as far as we are concerned, as far as the ships we hold are concerned, it is absolutely wiped out.
(Mr. Tennyson.) Do you think it would be a good way to issue Government advertisements in Australia Baying that it was proposed to send these ships on and that everybody must send in their claims to Cape Town by a certain date?
(Chairman.) Yes, I think so. I think it certainly would, because it will help matters in Australia con- siderably. There is a good deal of talk about this and why we are holding on to these ships and why we do not move them and so on. I should certainly say, yes,
(Mr. Tennyson.) And we might do that here.
26 November 1914.]
MINUTES OF EVIDENCE,
Mr. HUGHES and Mr. W. RICHARDS,
187. (Chairman.) Yen.--(Mr. Richards.) It would take the bills of lading from Australia, and if they are going to collect on the amount they will want those,
108. (Chairman.) They can give an undertaking to payThe ordinary course is to communicate to the shippers. You can communicate with the American shippers, but you could not communicate with the others. The agents of the ship have a copy of the Manifest and they know the ships perfectly well, and it is simple for them in New York to send out a circular to ascertain if they can tell them what has become of the bills of lading. You could not do that in the other
cuses,
109. (Mr. Tannyson.) We still want to get the bills of lading to Capo Town?—Yes. Really we would rather have them in Australia at the present time.
119. (Chairman.) But they must go to Cape Town because they have to release the cargo. Those are details which I think can be dealt with when we get a
[Continued.
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little further on ?-(Mr. Hughes.) Do you not think if we are going to get this bond it would be better to com municate with all these people and tell them to send their bills of lading on?
H
111. I do not care how you do it?-It will rather conflict if you have two things. You could say to our agents: Now part of this scheme is that you "must get all your merchants to send on the hills of lading." I have no doubt all these merchants are in their office because it has got rumoured about that we are going to deal with these ships. My people are very impatierit to-day and they were very slow because their office is being inundated.
112. Why do you not telegraph straight away and tell them to get hold of whatever they can out there and let you know what is not forthcoming P-I think that would lo. I think if you issue another advertise. ment it would look like an opposition show.
(Chairman.) We will leave it entirely in your hands,
The witnesses withdrew.
Mr. Jons F. Dick (London Chamber of Commerce) and Mr. Christopher TAYLOR attended.
113. (Chairman.) With regard to these vessels in Alexandria, the proposition is that two of them should be moved east and two west ?—(Mr. Diek.) Yes.
114. Do you know the actual position of affairs out there with regard to the cargo ? "It is the cargo which is the principal difficulty? The cargo is untouched ?
115. The curgo represents a very large number of Are the owners likely to come into line?--
owners.
Quite.
116. Have you an agreement with them at ul! ?— We have very complete ugreements with regard to the two boats going east, the Barenfels and the "Gutenfels."
117. How do you stand with regard to them?-We had about 120 men present, the owners of the cargo. A small committee was appointed and that committee instructed my own firm and Wackerbarth, who hold the manifest of those stemmers, to make a collection from the various shippers to the extent of 5 per cent. of the value of their shipments. We have collected something like 8,0007, so far for those two steamers. Our object was to be prepared to meet you when you were ready to mor». We did it in anticipation of coming to some arrangement with you. If everything falls through then the money will be given back,
118. There are two points to be considered. First of all with regard to the actual moving of the ships, are you prepared to take over the ships and undertake the moving of them for a certain lump sum ?—Yes.
119, That is to say, it will be a lump sum in respect of each ship? Yes.
120. And that lump sum will cover all expenses ?- Yes.
121, That is to say, you will provide the crew and the necessary stores as far as you have to replenish the stures, and take her out, in one case to Calcutta aml in the other case to Bomba” Þ. -Yes.
122. Have you considered at all the possibility of further liabilities that you may have to ingur 'Hove that and how you are going to meet them--in-umner, and that sort of thing? Yes, we should need to insure them. I take it that you would insist upon our insuring them?
123. Oh, yes. That will be included in your sum ? - YPB.
121. Have you any sum in your mind at all?— Well, what was in our mind was that we would incur the whole expense of moving the steamers to their desti- nations in India, free you of all expense and hold you fully covered as regards the marine risk, and 1 presume also the war risk -you would wish that?
125. Yes! --- We would do that. We estimated that roughly it would cost about 5,000l. per steamer. It was a very rough estimation.
128. I do not want to bind you to any figures at all at this stage, but I do want to know roughly what you anticipate it is going to cost P--We anticipated it would cost roughly about 5,000l. per steamer. That is, for the crew 1,0007, canal dues are about 1,0007., conl
and fuel about 1,0001, port dues roundabout 1,000l. und the insurance of the hull 1,000, and we intend that each shipper of cargo should insure his own cargo, But as far as you are concerned you will have a guarantee that the cargo is insured.
127. You will undertake to clear us of possible charges against the cargo?—Yes. I understand the prize fund's interest is the steamer and the enemy's cargo?
128. Yes-And that the British and neutral cargo you are prepared to relense?
129. Yes The result of this operation would be, that, instead of having a steamer in Alexandria, you would have it in the Indian ports free of all charge to yourselves.
130. Against that you would collect from the owners of the cargo-Yes. The intention is, and the agreement which the shippers have made is, that col- lection shall be made at the port of destination of a sufficient percentage on the value of the cargo to repay the 5 per cent, which has been collected her, and to cover any further expenses which may be incurred.
131. Hus all the cargo in these ships already paid freight, or some not? The cargo going east has nearly all paid freight. Practically all freight has been paid and collected in Hamburg and Antwerp before she left.
132. There is a certain amount of cargo which has not-It is absolutely trifling on the boats going cast quite negligible. It is quite unlikely there is any at all.
133. And with regard to the cargo going west ?- Cargo going weet has practically not paid freight because the custom is that freight, is always paid on the delivery of the cargo.
134. Where is the majority of the cargo going?— To Hamburg and Autwerp.
15. It is all enemy cargo practically?—No, it is practically all British cargo. The shippers are British.
136. That is the very point that has got to be decided. ns to the ownership The law is this, that cargo going to Hamburg is prima facie enemy cargo? -Yes, but the position is that British banks hold it.
13. That does not make the slightest difference. No lien like that is recognised by the court. It has got to be proved. The actual ownership of the cargo has to be proved in the court. I have no doubt they can prove it?-Say there is a British shipper in Rangoon who shipped 2,000 tons of rice consigned, say, to a German firm in Hamburg ?
1. That is an enemy cargo P-He sells his property in the cargo to a British Tank, and that bank holds it now,
139. That unfortunately I am afraid, by Prize Law, is enemy cargo. But that does not matter to us. That has to be settled eventually in the court. All we are concerned about is this, as to how we can best move all this cargo and the ships from where they are now lying to the port of destination ?-We should
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