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26 November 1914.]

OVERSEA PRIZE DISPOSAL COMMITTEE:

Mr. J. F. DICK and Mr. O. TAYLOR.

propose to bring the steamers either to London or Liverpool, I think probably Liverpool as being the best market for the produce on board; but that would be a matter for discussion with the shippers. The same terms would come in, we would move the steamers, The only difference in the two cases is that in the one case freight has to be collected on this side, and in the other case there is no freight to be collected.

140. You cannot collect freight from enemy consignees P-No. The banks look upon themselves

as owners.

141. They will have to prove it? That of course is a very important point, and unless the banks are clearly assured that they will get possession of the cargo then they will not move a finger or pay a penny to shift the ships.

.142. Naturally. Have the banks put in a claim for the cargo P--Oh, yes. Those representing the banks. who were present at the meetings claim the cargo.

143. But have they entered a claim at the Prize Court ?-No.

144. Then they can do nothing until they have entered a claim. They are non-existent as far as that cargo is concerned, at the present moment ?--I am told that the Chartered Bank has put in a claim, but they were not recognised. That is what you say the law is. Now that opens up a very important point from our point of view, can you permit our claims to be made at the port of destination?

145. They must be made at Alexandria?They must be?

(Chairman.) It is a British Prize Court.

(Mr. Malkin.) It is in the same position as the Court at Cape Town.

(Chairman) But the case can be moved from Alexandria to the High Court?

(Mr. Malkin.) No. The court at Alexandria is based on exactly the same commission as the others.

(Mr. Tennyson.) Could not the Prize Court here make an order of removal from Alexandria to London? (Mr. Malkin.) It is not in their jurisdiction. It is in the jurisdiction of the Prize Court at Alexandria.

(Chairman.) I thought the High Court could order the removal of a case from a colonial court to the High Court. It cannot order the removal of a case from one colonial court to another, but I thought it could order the removal of a case from a colonial court into the High Court.

(Mr. Malkin.) I do not think it can if the case is in the jurisdiction of a colonial court. I am not actually certain, but I do not think it can.

Mr. Tennyson.) It is not in His Majesty's dominions, and the Prize Court'a jurisdiction only extends to those I am afraid there will in His Majesty's dominions. be some difficulty in inducing the court here to make an order.

146. (Chairman.) Yes, I expect there would. Then the only alternative is that all claims must be made to Alexandria-We had hoped that that might not be necessary.

147. I am afraid it is -There is no means of you taking the control out of their hands?

148. No, I am afraid not. Once you get it into the court you cannot get it out again except by legislation? -That means tremendous delay, till all proof of the

cargo is made.

149. The holders of the documents can prove their case at once ?-The documents are spread over India in different places.

150. But you can do nothing without the documents, anyhow-If the steamer is conveyed on to the destina- tion, the documents are at the destination awaiting it. It will cause enormous trouble and delay and expense and everything else. If one could exercise some special power--that is really what I am here for, to try to get you to do that.

151. I know, but I am afraid that is beyond us?— Personally I do not know how it can be done, but I am quite certain it can be done.

152. It can be done by legislation, but unfortunately Parliament rises to-morrow and we shall not be able to start that until Parliament meets some time at the

[Continued.

end of January or February ?-If we had started a week sooner we might have passed a Bill. It is a pity. (Mr. Taylor.) A short Act to interlace the jurisdiction in all the Prize Courts was suggested.

153. I am afraid it did not come forward in time. I agree that I think that is what will have to be done. But in the meantime there, is no reason at all why that cargo should not be released at Alexandria against a bail bond which will represent the cargo in the court. I think that is the only way to get out of the difficulty at the present moment. Then it does not matter wheu the proof is made. It can go on and we can take time to collect the documents afterwards. There will be no difficulty about the proof of ownership in the case of cargo which is going east; that is practically all going to India, and there probably will not be the slightest But there difficulty about proof of ownership there,

will be a considerable difficulty about the proof of ownership of the cargo which is going west, because you mentioned just now the Chartered Bank were not allowed to put in an appearance. They have no locus standi at all. But they can put in a claim to the Attorney General's Committee, which is a body which has been got together to deal with these particular olsims which have to be dealt with out of the clemency of the Crown. It is a gift, because there is no right. But that takes time? (Mr. Dick.) Does the mere fact of a steamer being consigned to an enemy port make the cargo an enemy cargo?

154. It is the fact of the cargo being consigned to an enemy consignee?--I do not think the enemy con- signee appears in any shape or form in the documents. (Chairman.) But a consignment to an enemy port to order is an enemy consignment.

It

(Mr. Mulkin.) It is quite possible a great many of these points will be dealt with by the President.

may be the property remains with the shipper, and in that case the shipper can claim. There was the case of the Miramicwi," a consignment of corn shipped from the United States to Germany before the out- break of the war, and the President held that the property bad not passed to the German consigner, although it would have been different if the goods had been shipped after the outbreak of the war.

(Chairman.) That will simplify matters a great deal. I think the best thing that can be done now will be for you to work out your estimate and make us a firm offer of what you will move each of these ships for to the port of destination covering the Government against all claime.

155. Do you expect any freight for moving the ships to India ?—I will take those two first.

156. Does the Government expect any profit to be made out of the transaction, you mean?-Yes.

157. No, not as regards the eastern-bound ships?- Why should it be necessary to make you a firm offer, with a specific sum named? Because we have to pay the expenses, whatever they are.

158. Because we want to see what the sum is !- There is no objection, but it is a little difficult to say a precise sum. We will know within a few hundred pounds, probably, and we will prove that we have that money available.

159. It depends upon how the whole transaction is to be settled up. We may want to do it in this way, that you will quote us a certain sum. We may have to see that that sum is guaranteed or paid, and then an account will be rendered at the end, and anything which is over will be returned back to the guarantors. But I do not quite know how it will work out. I want to see what your proposition is before we actually decide-You think it is quite possible that you may move the steamers with our money.

160. With your money, yes, you acting as agents for un. It may be that. I cannot tell you quite at the present moment, because there are one or two things to be considered. But at any rate I would like you to let us know what you think it could be done for?-Very well.

181. That is to say that you will do that and hold us absolutely free. That is on the understanding that

26 November 1914.]

MINUTES OF EVIDENCE.

Mr. J. F. DICK and Mr. C. TAYLOR.

we do not require any profit, any freight, on that cargo going out to India -Then, coming west, the position is a little different, because there is the freight to be collected on this side.

162. Quite P-The natural course will be that the expenses are paid out of the freight. Do you accept

that P

163. Yes? You do not want us to defray the expenses of moving the ship from Alexandria to Liverpool?

164. No, the expenses will be paid out of the freight, and then the question of the balance will have to be settled afterwards ?—Of course, that has nothing to do with the owners of the cargo. That is clearly for the Government--for the Prize Court. That is the situation, and that clears up the point we had a difficulty with one of our members upon. That, I think, is thoroughly reasonable and quite practical. As soon as we possibly can we will let you have a firm proposal on those lines, in connection with those four steamers. Then with regard to the ships in India again, when they get there are you content to take them there?

165. We will take them there ?-And deal with tlíem as you think best? (Chairman.) Yes.

(Mr. Ecans.) Would you not have them sent back with the crews they have sent out?

(Chairman.) It is a point, I think, which I would rather like to leave open at the present monisat, because we might send them back with the crews and bring back a cargo.

166. (M.. Evans.) That is what I mean?That is what I was going to suggest, that you should have them put in barth, as the Government has put other steamer in barth, and bring them back with their crews to this country with full cargoes, which should certainly be a profitable operation to you. Because you appreciate that steamers all make their profit on the homeward voyage. The outward voyage is a losing voyage almost always. It is quite exceptional for a star to arrive in an Indian port without being 7001, or 8001., or 1,0901. out of pocket, which she has to make up on the way back,

167. (Chairman.) I think that is probaly what we shall do. The whole machinery is not quite perfect We shall probably yet, but we shall probably do that. ask you t› bring them back for us?—As we are doing now with the ships going to India ?

168. Yes? With regard to those which have to go back to India we are negotiating a cargo for them untwards. May I refer to various vessels in neutral ports, largely Italian ports. I wonder if you can help us there. There has been a decision in connection with the Rhenania."

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[Continued.

169. That is the question of forcing the discharge! -Yes. Can you help our friends, the Italians, to put the law into force a bit ?

(Chairman.) We cannot do it. We cannot make the Italian Government enforce their own laws.

170. (Mr. Roper.) An action was brought by a Frenchman of Marscilles, and he won ?-I believe the cargo has been delivered, but that is because the con- signees have agreed to the captain's terms rather than face a three years' delay. The captain wanted a deposit of, I think, 10 per cent, to cover the delays and expenses, and they said Very well." The point is, can you help us at all where a captain's demands are unreasonable? It is within 171. (Chairman.) I um afraid not. the jurisdiction of the Italian Government, and we

cannot help that ?-We tried the Foreign Office, and I do not think they could help us either.

172. (Mr. Roper.) What the Foreign Office can do is this. Where a man does bring au action, the Foreign Office can put a little pressure on to expedite the case, which is very useful? Yes.

173. (Mr. Malkin.) It cannot be dons till the action is instituted? (Mr. Taylor.) Can you tell us where action should be brought in the case of eight ships at Massowah?

174. (Chairman.) That is Italian again ?-There is no court there.

175. There is a court of first instance there. There must be? There are eight ships there. Now that you tell us it is not competent for you to ask the Italian Government to enforce their laws, of course shippers will have to bring actions, as they did in the case of Rhenania," but in the case of Massowah we do not know where to bring the action.

We have a consul (Chairman.) At Mussowah.

th

there. You ought to bring an action and instruct an agent at Massowah to confer with the consul, who will tell him exactly how he can start the action, and then he can commence the action, and then we can ask the Foreign Office to move. But until you have commenced your action the Foreign Office cannot move.

(Mr. Roper.) At the Board of Trade I have had several representations about ships at Massowah, and what you have said is practically the effect of the advice which we have given both to the London Chamber of Commerce and to individuals. The fact that this action was won in the Neapolitan courts is rather a good omen for a case in any Italian court.

176. (Chairman.) I think so. The only thing to do is to institute the action as soon as you can, and then

we can get along. Until you have done that we have no power?-Afr. Dick.) Your committee are prepares! to deal with this? You can go ahead!

You had

177. Oh, yes. You make us an offer. better address it to Mr. Wiseman-That is quite satisfactory.

Evidence taken at the Fourth Meeting.

Monday, 30th November, 1914.

MEMBERS PRESENT:

VICE-ADMIRAL SIR EDMOND J. W. SLADE, K.C.I.E., K.C.V.O. (in the Chair).

Mr. G. B. BARSTOW, C.B.

Mr. W. J. EVANS.

Mr. T. H. HOLT.

Mr. H. W. MALKIN.

Mr. G. RoPER.

Mr. C. TENNYSON. Mr. C. D. WAKELY.

Mr. R. A. WISEMAN (Secretary).

Mr. H. MAITLAND KERSEY (Manager of the Ocean Services, Canadian Pacific Railway) attended.

178. (Chairman.) I understand that your Company wish to hire some of these prizes and vessels which we have got under detention P-Yea, we did some little time ngu, but failing to get any of these German ships we have been making other arrangements, and I should

M 25440 Ev &c

not be quite sure how many we could afford to take now I should think perhaps two or three.

179. It is not a case of that. It looks as if we were going to have a very large number of applications for But we would like to assist your Company as

them.

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