471
NAVAL DEFENCE
NATAL DEFENCE.
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they would spend so much a year for the maintenance of the fleet as I understood, were the Colonies prepared to give something at the present time towards that same object ? That was the view, I think.
The Secretary of State.] Yes, subject to this: that I do not at all doubt that we might agree to conditions in regard to such contributions, but I think we do hold very strongly that those conditions should not tie our hands in time of war; that it would be most dangerous to the Colonies, and that they would be entirely misunderstanding the situation if they thought that a local force of this kind would give them the protection which we want them to have; that it would be very much better that their protection should be part of the general defence of the Empire than that it should be a special and localised defence. Those who have read those extremely interesting and valuable books of Captain Mahan will find that he lays it down in a most definite way, and all our naval authorities agree, that the principle of defence is to attack the enemy's fleet, and if the ships of the so-called defending power are to be kept in particular waters and localised, they will probably be cut up in detail, and they certainly will not be successful in defence, whereas if they always are on the heels of the offensive fleet that fleet will be powerless to do
harm.
any
Sir Wilfrid Laurier.] Do you not think, sir, the feeling which now prevails in the Australian Colonies leads their representatives here to say that they have no hope of maintaining that contribution at the present time in time of peace, unless there was a local squadron in their waters of the same strength, and still stronger in time of war. I do not think that would be wise-Ï do not think so—but I am very much afraid it would be just as strong again in time of war.
Mr. Seddon.] You see, how the thing started was this: The Imperial authorities had a naval force in Australian waters; we in the Colonies did not think that force was strong enough, and we then made the proposals to contribute conditionally upon that being brought to a given standard, and we fixed the point, the number of ships, the class of course has not been maintained. We fixed then the limit known as Australian seas; that was agreed upon at the time. Mr. Chamberlain says now that the altered circumstances make it imperative that the squadron there shall, if anything, be strengthened, and that it shall be maintained there because we have the fleet of Japan which has been strengthened and made very much more powerful now than it was at the time this agreement was made. We have the same in China. There we have in the west, and still further; there they are all the time, so that if it is ever a question of attacking parties and getting our squadron together for that purpose, there is where the necessity would arise. And the force against us is greater than it was at the time we entered into this agreement. What we feel is this, that we may have this fleet, this Australian squadron, drawn from the Australian seas, sent to either of the Capes, utilised there, leaving us helpless against what may come from either east or west as the case may be, and that is why we say we may for years have been contributing in time of peace, then when the trouble comes, we have really no defence at all.
Sir George Turner.] All our inter-colonial trade might be ruined and no one there to help us.
Mr. Seddon.] And no one there to help us.
Sir Wilfrid Laurier.] Your contribution is not restricted by any condition, but left free to be carried on by the naval authorities just as they think best. You say "No, we want to control our contribution."
Sir George Turner.] We want it to be used there.
Mr. Seddon.] The different admirals on the station have been driving at this for years, I think. They asked for absolute control, and not for the restrictions there are at present, that is really the position.
Sir Wilfrid Laurier.] You cannot agree to that.
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The people
Sir John Forrest.] We would not get the vote. Mr. Reid.] That is the trouble; we could not get the votes. look upon this squadron which they contribute to as a line of Australian defence.
Sir George Turner.] A kind of insurance.
Mr. Reid.] The inner line in the Imperial line of defence, but an outer Australian line of defence. Everyone must admit that the exigencies of war might require us up at the Mediterranean somewhere, or at Hong Kong, or away over at the Sandwich Islands. We all must feel that no one can tell the precise part at which the fleet might be called to fight foes; we all feel that, but we look to the fleet as an Imperial weapon to deal with those exigencies. This force we look upon, not asan Imperial weapon so much as a sort of more or less fixed line of reserve, inner reserve for the protection of trade. The Admiralty is quite right in wishing to get freedom, absolute freedom, perfectly right from their point of view; but our point of view is so different, we have to get our people to contribute.
Sir Wilfrid Laurier.] Well, Mr. Reid, the question is this: has the. In- perial sentiment through the Colonies come to that stage of development that they are willing to contribute their share to the Imperial fleet, which would be an Imperial fleet?
Mr. Reid.] Apart.
Sir Wilfrid Laurier.] Apart from these local considerations which you speak of.
Mr. Reid.] Have you tried your Parliament on that subject?
Sir Wilfrid Laurier.] No, never; the question has never been brought before them.
Mr. Reid.] No Colony is more loyal, no Dominion is more loyal, than Canada, and it would encourage us very much in Imperial sentiment if you would stimulate our sympathics in that way.
Sir Wilfrid Laurier.] I do not know that it can be said that the Dominion of Canada is more loyal than your Colony. The only ground upon which it can be approached, is the Imperial sentiment, and whether it has come to this state of development, that you are willing to contribute to the Imperial fleet. You say it has not. In Canada it has not been discussed at all, but we have done a good deal in the way of spending money for
the defence of this Empire, very much in the same way as our Australian Colonial sisters have done. Looking after No. 1 first, we have spent money in building railways from a strategical point of view, helping on fortifications on land, and so on, at Esquimalt I mean; but the question as to whether or not money should be contributed to the Imperial fleet, or not, has not been agitated; up to the present time it has been regarded rather as an academical question than a practical one; but now it is put to us as a practical question: are the Colonies prepared, apart from their local sentiment, from the Imperial idea alone, to contribute money towards the maintenance and development of the British fleet? No doubt Canada will con- sider it and give an answer.
The Secretary of State.] And I would add to that, that I think that if they were willing to do so it might be possible to make arrangements which would be satisfactory to them in time of peace so far as the material interest is concerned.
Sir Wilfrid Laurier.] Yes.
The Secretary of State.] That is to say that we should keep so considerable a squadron, probably more than anything represented by their contribution, in their waters, and that the money spent there would probably be more than the contribution; that is a matter of detail which we could arrange and which might ease matters with the constituencies in these Colonies.
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PUBLIC RECORD OFFICE
Reference :-
C.O. 885
PUBLIC RECORD OFFICE, LONDON
ALLY WITHOUT PERMISSION OF THE BE REPRODUCED PHOTOGRAPHIC- COPYRIGHT PHOTOGRAPH-NOT TO
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