PUBLIC RECORD OFFICE
Reference :-
C.O. 885
24 PUBLIC RECORD OFFICE, LONDON
ALLY WITHOUT PERMISSION OF THE BE REPRODUCED PHOTOGRAPHIC-
COPYRIGHT PHOTOGRAPH-NOT TO
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Did you tell him of the way in which it was hung up-I told him he had had a warning notice displayed but it was hung up behind a door and could not be
seen.
And you told him that at that interview ?—Yes. And did Mr. Hetherington say to you,
If you
send me some more warnings I will hang them up. I have not got any "-Not to me.
Did you hear him say that to anybody?—No.
Did you send him a warning notice afterwards?—No.
Why not?—I thought the warning we had given him was ample. It was a very
clear warning we gave him during our visit.
Did he ask you to send him some bills to hang up?--No.
Are you sure of that?-Quite certain.
Did you ask him, or did Mr. Macnaghten in your presence, whether he could not manage to send intending passengers to your office for information?——No.
Did you hear Mr. Hetherington reply that he found many did make enquiries at your office, and also at the office of the Argentine Consul-General?—No.
But if they were determined to go out to the Argentine no warnings would stop them ?---No.
Nothing of that kind?---Nothing of that kind at all.
With regard to the warning I should like to ask you again what did you warn Mr. Hetherington?-I told him that there was hardship and destitution in the Argentine, and that I had in my pocket a petition signed by 34 emigrants who had suffered in that way, and that he was mentioned in that document as being the chief offender.
Did you take the trouble to show him the petition?--I did not.
Why not?-It was a document received from a certain source, and I did not particularly want to show it to him. He was told about it.
Now with regard to the warnings, is it your experience that these people take very little notice of warnings?--No.
What does the "No" mean?-In answer to your question-Is it my experience that people do not take notice of warnings?
The CLERK: You say that is not your experience?--I think they do take notice. Mr. RAEBURN: You think they do?--Yes.
Were you in Court on the last occasion when these summonses were being heard?
-Yes.
Did you hear one, two, or three of the witnesses say what they looked at was not the warning, but the part of the pamphlet they looked at was the part where the wages were shown and the information which was contained as to the Labour Bureau?
Mr. ComYNS CARR: I do not know that they saw this warning at all, or any warning notice.
Mr. RAEBURN: There was the warning in these pamphlets.
The WITNESS: I do not think I heard them say they ever saw a warning of kind.
any
Mr. RAEBURN: That is scarcely my question, but I will pass on. You know, I suppose (you have told me already) that these pamphlets are being issued by the Argentine Consul-General ?--Yes.
You know also that Mr. Hetherington is merely the agent of a number of steamship companies?—Yes, at least I do not know it; I assume he is.
You know it quite well?—Yes.
For the Royal Holland Lloyd-Well, he was booking people by the boats of the Royal Holland Lloyd, so I suppose he was agent for that Company.
For the Royal Mail, and for the Nelson Line?—I could not say. I do not know what lines he was agent for.
In the course of your enquiries have you found out whether the Royal Holland Lloyd, the Nelson Line, and the Royal Mail issue this very pamphlet ?-I know the Nelson Line does. I do not know that the Royal Mail does.
You do not know about the Royal Mail ?---No.
Do you know you can get these pamphlets from Thomas Cook & Son any day by going there and asking for them?---No.
You do not know that?--No.
Do you know that you can get similar statements from His Majesty's Stationers, Messrs. Wyman & Company? If you are referring to the pamphlets issued by
office you can get the Statute quoted in that.
my
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I will refer to that pamphlet in a moment. I will ask you this first of all. What part of the pamphlets issued by Mr. Hetherington, or given by Mr. Hetherington to these persons, do you say is false?-Well, the statement that work would be found for all by the State Labour Bureau is not carried out in fact.
yes.
That is false?---As far as the experience of those who sought work is concerned,
Putting that statement, that work is found by the Argentine Government through the State Labour Bureau, into a pamphlet is misleading to intending emigrants? Well, not entirely, because that pamphlet is full of warnings.
Into a pamphlet into any pamphlet Into a pamphlet. It is simply a quotation of the law of the country.
And according to you the law of the country is not carried out by the country?— As subsequent events proved.
And that Mr. Hetherington knew about in January, 1913, at any rate?-Yes. And therefore a statement of that sort is a statement which you, looking after emigrants as you do, would naturally suppress even though it was the law of the country?--I am not disposed to say that, provided we in our publications sufficiently warn people that the place is not suited to them.
What is the good of putting into a pamphlet for intending emigrants a state- ment of that kind which you know is not carried out, and which is a statement which attracts emigrants?-I do not say at that time that we knew it was not carried out to the extent, as proved later.
When did you know it?-I think in connection with this present case and the materials leading up to it.
I will ask you again, when you got to know it why did not you go and tell Mr. Hetherington straight out candidly, Though this is the Argentine law, it is not carried out"?-I do not think we had any special cause to go to Mr. Hetherington in that way.
Now, as to this pamphlet. This pamphlet may be bought to-day, may it not, at Wyman's?—Yes.
This particular copy was bought for me before the summons was first heard. The MAGISTRATE: Do you want to put it in?
Mr. RAEBURN: I only want to refer to it now.
Mr. COMYNS CARR: There is a copy, Sir. (Same handed.)
Mr. RAEBURN: I thought I noticed in what has been handed to you, Sir John, what may be a warning. Those are not being sold at Wyman's as pamphlets. Do you know that?--I did not understand that, but every care was taken to have it inserted as far as possible in all copies.
That copy was bought for me at Wyman's the night before this summons was heard in Court, and there is no warning in it ?--I cannot understand why that was so.
I mean no warning on a separate piece of paper?-If you say so, I will take it. Mr. COMYNS CARR: There is a separate piece of paper, but pasted on the front. Mr. RAEBURN: Listen to this. This is on the outside.
The MAGISTRATE: Is this the same as yours?
Mr. RAEBURN: Yes, Sir John. It is the same. It is dated 1912, but mine is dated 1910.
Mr. COMYNS CARR: The one my friend is going to quote is entirely out-of-date, Sir John.
Mr. RAEBURN: I have the other one. This is the one dated the 24th April, 1913,
On the outside you observe this: Note 1.' which was bought and sold.
The Emigrants Information Office was established by Her late Majesty's Govern- "ment in 1888 for the purpose of supplying intending emigrants with useful and trustworthy information respecting emigration chiefly to the British Dominions Oversea, and is under the direction of the Colonial Office." Then it is published by His Majesty's Stationery Office, and it is headed, General Information for
Intending Settlers."
It is
36
If you have got a copy before you, would you mind looking at page 34. page 35 in the 1912 copy?--Yes.
Immigration Law. The following is a summary of the Argentine laws on 'immigration." Do you see that?--Yes.
CC
Then at page 36: Any person arriving in the Republic who has paid a second or third-class passage or obtained an assisted or subsidiary one, being apt to work, "and under sixty years of age, may avail himself of the following advantages:-
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