CO885-(23-24) — Page 555

PUBLIC RECORD OFFICE

Reference :-

TIC.O. 885

24 PUBLIC RECORD OFFICE, LONDON

ALLY WITHOUT PERMISSION OF THE BE REPRODUCED PHOTOGRAPHIC- COPYRIGHT PHOTOGRAPH-NOT TO

36

force to unskilled workmen or clerks, in search of speculative employment; but it is essential that every British emigrant proceeding to the Argentine should understand that the laws and language of the Republic are entirely different from those of Great Britain, that ignorance of Spanish will be a serious handicap to him in his search for work, and that he will have to compete in the labour market with Italiane and Spaniards and in the less settled provinces with natives, who are accustomed to standards of living and rates of wages greatly inferior to those to which he has been accustomed in this country. For these reasons the Committee are satisfied that it is dangerous for any British emigrant without capital to proceed to the Argentine unless he has obtained a definite personal guarantee of work from an employer in the Republic prior to his departure from England."

Is that the warning notice you issued?—Yes. (Same handed.)

As we know from the evidence that has been given here even after that the complaints have not ceased.-No.

Cross-examined by Mr. RAEBURN.

Did you go to Mr. Hetherington partly in consequence of the fact that he was advertising-No.

Did know he was advertising fares to Buenos Ayres?—Yes.

you

You went, I suppose, for the purpose of getting him to stop booking persons for the Argentine?That was the reason of our going there, so that these people should not be landed in hardship.

you

Did tell him that if he went on doing this he would be committing an offence? -Well, not in quite those words. I told him, if I might explain this, that, in his advertisements, he simply made use practically of the wording, by quoting the statute or Acts of the Argentine Government. Beyond that we know nothing. We could not tell what took place in his office as regards conversations between him and the people who called there. So it was not in any way a vicious visit at all. We did not want to, what shall I say, threaten him with any kind of proceedings, but simply to ask him to help us in lessening the stream of emigration to the Argentine.

I follow. The only information you had as to what he was doing was he was giving these people pamphlets which contained certain information, about the Argen- tine? As far as we know.

And part of the information contained in these pamphlets was that the Argentine Government found work through their State Labour Bureau ?----Yes.

you you

knew?—Yes.

That And knew also, I suppose, that was a statement made on the authority of the Argentine Government themselves by their Cónsul-General?-There was a state- ment in the book which purported to be issued by the Argentine Government.

You know that these statements are made by the Argentine Consul-General on the authority of the Argentine Government -It is made in the pamphlet.

It is made in the pamphlet by the Argentine Consul-General, who sends those pamphlets out. He is repeating practically a promise that they would find work in the Argentine. I do not know how the handbook is issued, or where it is published. I do not know anything about that.

You know perfectly well, as an official of the Government charged with the obtaining of emigrants, and you know perfectly well all these pamphlets, the white one that has been referred to, and all the rest, have been issued by the Argentine Republic? Well, I look upon them as official documents, I think.

And in consequence of the issuing of these official documents, or, rather, the sending of these official documents by him to intending emigrants, you went to see him? No. That was not the real reason of our visiting him. The real reason was the receipt of that document signed by a number of intending [destitute] emigrants. Did you think Mr. Hetherington was committing an offence, or would be if he continued?-I thought it might lead to what might be called an offence if he con- tinued to do it.

Just to follow that up for a moment, before asking more about the interview:

you knew, I suppose, in your capacity as emigration officer, Mr. Hetherington's

advertisements of these fares to the Argentine Republic were continued subse- quently?—Yes.

Did you ever go to him again?—No, we did not go to him again.

Did you ever write to him?-No.

Did you give him any sort of warning that a prosecution would follow if he did not cease? No.

Why not?--I do not think it is quite our function to do that.

37

Apparently you were endeavouring to protect emigrants, naturally?—Yes, we were trying to protect the British emigrants.

Do you not think if you had sent him an official letter, or had sent an official hint and a warning, not an ambiguous warning like you gave on the 10th January, to Mr. Hetherington, he would have stopped? The warning we gave him was not at all ambiguous; on the contrary, it was very clear.

We will see about that. Do you not think Mr. Hetherington would have stopped?-I cannot say what Mr. Hetherington might do.

May I take it from you, between the 10th January, 1913, until the day when Mr. Hetherington was served with the summons in these proceedings you took no steps to endeavour to stop what you regarded as a criminal offence?—I did not think it laid within our functions to do so. We had already warned him.

The answer to my question is no, is it not? You took no steps?-No. Now, a little more about this interview. Mr. Macnaghten was with you, was he not? He was.

Was he the principal speaker?-Well, I should not care to say at this distance of time that he was, or that I was.

Did Mr. Macnaghten say that advice received from the Argentine did not encourage English people to go there?-Mr. Macnaghten is in Court there, and he will tell you what he said.

You were there and heard him?--I cannot say that 1 heard everything that Mr. Macnaghten said, or that he heard everything that I said.

It is not a very large office, is it?-It is not, but people do not always speak loud enough to be heard by everybody in the room.

Do you mean that, that you did not hear what Mr. Macnaghten said?—I do not

say that I did hear. I cannot say that I did hear all that he said.

Did you hear anyone say, or did you say, "It will certainly be to the advantage of emigrants to emigrate to British Colonies rather than to the Argentine"?—I myself said that.

Did Mr. Hetherington reply that many of his passengers had been to the Colonies and returned to England not having been successful in the Colonies?-As far as I remember some people went to the British Colonies and failed, and some people went to the Argentine and succeeded.

Did he mention to you only a few days before your visit a party of three had called

upon him with regard to a passage to Buenos Ayres?—No.

And that those three had come direct from Melbourne?-I do not remember. And told him that thousands of unemployed had been compelled to sleep in the open park at Melbourne?-I do not remember.

And they were without food or money?—I do not remember that.

Did he tell you that good accounts regarding employment had also been given him by men from South America and Canada?—I do not remember.

Nothing about that?—No.

Did you or Mr. Macnaghten say something to him about the warning notice being hung up in the office?—I did not mention it, or, rather, he did not mention it to me personally. I think the fact that he had hung up the warning in the office was said to Mr. Macnaghten.

Did

you or Mr. Macnaghten say to him you did not see any warning notice hung up? I did not say so.

Did you hear it?—I did not.

Did you hear any conversation about the warning notice?-I heard him say he hung up our warnings, and he could not see how he could do more.

You told my friend you saw no warning hung up.-No.

Did you or Mr. Macnaghten say to Mr. Hetherington that warnings had been hung up in Mr. Hetherington's old office, and that he had seen them there?—I saw a warning hung up in Mr. Hetherington's old office, 163A, Strand, some years before. It was covered up by other things. It was hung up on a wall which was covered up when the door was open, and the door was always open.

That is the office Mr. Hetherington had before it was burnt down?--I do not know about the burning down.

It was burnt down?-I do not know that.

You say you saw no warning hung up in his present office, but you saw one in his previous office?--I saw one there, but it was not clear.

Did

you

tell him it was not clear?-No.