186
27 October 1908]
CROWN AGENTS' ENQUIRY COMMITTEE:
Mr. M. S. DARKOCII.
4598. (Sir Ralph Moor.) That does not include the shipping papers-Yes. Of the accounts we have to check there are several copies. One copy goes to the Pay Office, which pays the amount stated, and one copy goes over to the shipping section, and they enclose. it in their letter advising the shipment.
4539. To your checking papers what is attached- there is the invoice from the manufacturer ?-The in- voice from the manufacturer, the bill of lading, the particulars of the way the goods are packed, the freight account, and the inspection account if the goods have been inspected.
4540. The shipping agent's charges? They are in- cluded in the freight account.
4541. That is part of the freight account?—Yes. 4542. That is the entire cost of a consignment up to and including the shipment and freight-Yes.
4549. It is the shipment checking department?— Yes, it is checking the cost.
4544. (Mr. Harris,) Perhaps I might ask a question arising out of that: then the difficulty in providing the Committee with the amount paid to the shipping agents is that you apparently keep no separate column in your books for the shipping agents' charges in the freight account? That is so.
4545, (Sir Ralph Moor.) Is there any connection now between your department and the department where
those goods were ordered, that is to say, would you have any cognisance whatever that there had been an order given which should be shipped by such and such a date?—Their papers give it to us, but we do not get them out until we are advised by Freelands that the goods have been shipped.
4546. That is the first notice you get of the order having been given practically? That is so in the checking section.
4547. In your shipping department?—I cannot tell you what the shipping section does. Mr. Reade will tell you that.
4548. (Chairman.) I understand that if for any cause some order had got out of sight and boen lost it would not be in your checking department that that would be found out; you only deal with what has actually been shipped-It would eventually, because we do keep a list of the covers in use (they go in serial numbers: 1, 2, 3), and we see that every number is marked off, so that it would come up some time, but not just at once.
4549. Would it come up a year afterwards?—No.
4550. Would it come up automatically?-Yes, it would come up automatically, but there would be de- lay in advising the shipment.
4551. It might be some months?—It might be some months.
The witness withdrew.
Mr. A. 13. READE, called and examined.
1552. (Chairman.) You are, I believe, the section head of the Shipping Department?—Yes.
4553. Who is the head of that department ?--Mr.
James.
4554. And he is ill at present?—Yes.
4555. Who is the deputy-head?-Mr. Darroch. -1556. He has only been in the office a fortnight?—
Yes.
1557. How long have you been in the position of section head?-I cannot tell you that; only lately I was informed that I might consider myself as section head. I have been in doubt about it for a long time, 4558. How long have you been in the Crown Agents Office?-Twenty-five years next March.
4559. What department were you in when you first started-The Works Department.
4560. How long were you there?-Approximately, about 10 years, I think.
4581. Where did you go next?-To the general
stores.
4562. How long were you there ?-About five years, approximately.
4563. Where were you after the stores?—I was then transferred to the shipping.
4584. How long were you there 7-About five years. 4565. Then from the shipping?-To the Records. 4566. How long were you there?--About two years. 4567. Then ?—Then I was moved back to the ship- ping department again.
4568. To a better position than you were in before? Not that I know of.
4569. To do the saine work as you were doing before?—Yes.
4570. Will you tell us what your work is ?—Advising all the Governments of the shipments that take place and the insurance of the same.
4571. (Mr. Bailey.) That are about to take place, or that have taken place?-That are about to take place; that is to say, after our shipping agents have arranged shipment,
4572. (Chairman.) Will you tell us the work that goes on in your department? as a whole? When do
you first know of an order having been received from any Colony-Stores are not ordered in our depart- thent.
4578. When does the work begin in your depart- ment? When we get the bill of lading.
4574. Not until then?-Not as a rule.
4575. Are you not advised from the office from which the orders are sent out to the contractors what orders have been sent?No.
4576. Then you know nothing of what has been going on in all the preliminary stages until you are advised by Messrs. Freeland that there are so many hundred tons of goods to be shipped? That is so.
4577. And from that moment you deal with it ?--- Yes.
1578. Having got the bills of lading and the freight notes from Messrs. Freeland, what steps do you take? -We then advise the Governments concerned.
4579. Do you make an entry of these invoices ?-- Yes, we take copies of our advice letters.
4680. Who makes out the invoices?-The con- Iractors or suppliers.
4581. You simply send all those documents out to the Colonies? That is so.
4582. Have you anything to do with the question of the date of shipment or delays in shipment?—Yes, in some cases.
4683. Supposing they did not send you those docu- ments, would you know they were late-No, not necessarily.
4584. You simply deal with them when they are sent to you? Yes.
4585. (Mr. Bailey.) You practically get all your information from Messrs. Freeland ?—Yes, as regards shipments.
4586. You depend upon Biesars. Freeland for the work of your office?-Entirely, as regards the arrange- ments for freight.
4587, (Chairman.) Have you anyone in your office who knows anything about the shipping?——Mr. James may know something about the technicalities of shipping; no one else does.
The witness withdrew.
Adjourned to Friday next at 12 o'clock.
MINUTES OF EVIDENCE,
Meeting on Friday, 30th October, 1908.
At the Colonial Office, Downing Street.
FILEBENT:
SIR ALBERT SPICER, Bart., M.P. (Chuirnuin), Sir RALPH MOOR, K.C.M.G.
H. BAILEY, Esq., M.V.O., 1.8.0.
C. A. HARRIS, EM, C.B., C.M.G.
Mr. J. FOSTER, called and examined.
4588. (Chairman.) You are the head of the Shipping Department of the Army and Navy Stores?--Yes.
1589. You have kindly volunteered, in response to our request, to give us some evidence in connection with the working of your department?-That is so.
1590. How long have you had a shipping depart- ment at the Army and Navy Stores 7-24 years.
4591. The Army and Navy Stores dates from about 1866 or 1888, does it not?-It is about 34 years old. We took over our shipping 24 years ago.
4592. What used you to do up to that time?--The Society gave the work out to shipping agents.
4593. At what stage did they give it to the agents? For instance, they had their orders from abroad and they executed them; but when did they invoke the aid of the shipping agents?-When the goods were pay for shipment.
4594. Packed ?-Packed ready for shipment. 4595. In bales or cases, whichever it was?—Yes. 1500. What was your course of procedure then?- Then the Society advised its shipping agents, gave the agents particulars of the consignment, where it was to go, and so on, and the agents would find a ship, make the rates and look after the shipment, and charge us in due course for doing so.
4507. Did they do the insurance as well 1-I am not quite certain about that point, but I believe they did. 1598. They only took up the matter when your goods were ready either to be sent f.o.b. or from your stores 7-Yes.
4599. Most of them in your case, I take it, would be packed at the Stores?-At that time the bulk of it went from the stores, but now it goes from all parts.
1600. They engaged the freight and saw to its being shipped-That is so.
4801. Were they supposed to see to the loading of it-Oh, yes; they would be held responsible for prompt shipment at that time.
4602. Do you imagine that they actually went on board? They may have sent clerks to the docks; it is usual at times. For instance, the boat might be shutting out she might have a lot of cargo alongside. 4603. They would go to see whether the goods were placed on the ship or not?--Yes. Not in connection with the stowage of the ship, but simply to see that the goods were not left behind if the ship was running full.
4604. That is not your process now as regards ship. ping agents? No, we perform all the shipments our- selves and look after the business throughout.
1605. How long have you done that 7--For 24 years; as a matter of fact I went to the stores to take the husiness over.
4606. What is your plan of operations now?—The goods are ordered and prepared for shipment; then full particulars are handed to shipping clerks in our own employ, and it is their duty to find a ship, arrange the rate, and see that the goods are put on board, to advise the consignees of what is coming, how it is coming. and so on, and to send on the shipping documents.
e 21
A. J. HARDING (Serretury).
187
4607. The whole of that is now done in your office? -Yes, the whole thing.
4008. You were appointed to take that position?— Yes, as shipping clerk.
4000. Do you superintend it all now?--I do. 4610. What experience had you had when you went to that office?—I had had seven years, chiefly in the South African trade-four years in London and three years at the Cape.
4611. Where you had to do the same class of work? -I saw it all,
4612. For an export house?--Yes, a house which bought and shipped-bought for different marks at the Cape and arranged for the shipment throughout. 4613. (Afr. Bailey.) They were not slipping agents pure and simple ?-No, the firm I am speaking of wero merchants; they bought for different houses at the Cape and shipped the goods and employed their own ship- ping clerks to look after it
1
Of
4614. (Chairman.) Can you give us any idea as to the comparative cost? Was it a saving to the Army and Navy Stores?-Oh, yes; it is a long time ago, have been trying to look up records, and I cannot put my hand on them; but I recollect drawing up a return showing a considerable saving the first year. course, their shipments were smaller then than now; the volume of business was smaller then than it is now.
4615. Could you give us any particulars as to the rates you used to pay to these shipping agents when they did the whole work-the rates you found were being paid when you entered upon your duties? Was it so much a bale or case?-It depended upon the size of the consignment; some would come through at parcel rates and others were charged at tonnage rates. We were then shipping a good many small consignments, and they made their charges by dissect- ing shipments as they made them, charging us a pro- portion for this package and for that package, and so
on.
4616. Had they a regular schedule?—I do not think they had; it was just a little bit loose at that time.
4617. Did they do it all through "one firm?--The great bulk of it; the Continental part of the business went through a City house and the rest of the business went through the other firm.
+
4618. Of course, you had not worked under the old regime--No; it was because they did not care about the old regime that they took me on, I suppose.
4619. Do you know what led them to take up the work? Were they not satisfied?-They were not satis fied; evidently they considered they could save money by doing the work themselves, because there was quite sufficient to employ a certain number for the whole of their time.
4620. (Sir Ralph Moor.) This work is done from your office in Westminster 7-Yes,
4621. You do not find it necessary to have an office in the City? No, we do not. We do a tremendous lot over the telephone and have a good system of telephones, and then I have one or two men running backwards and forwards-juniors-to lodge and take
4
AA 2
PUBLIC RECORD OFFICE
Reference :-
C.O.885
19 PUBLIC RECORD OFFICE, LONDON
ALLY WITHOUT PERMISSION OF THE BE REPRODUCED PHOTOGRAPHIC- COPYRIGHT PHOTOGRAPH-NOT TO
MINUTES OF EVIDENCE.
Meeting on Friday, 30th October, 1908.
At the Colonial Office, Downing Street.
187
- PREBENT :
SIR ALBERT SPICER, BART., M.P. (Chairman).
OR, KC.M.G.
4. M.V.O., I.8.0.
C. A. HAHRIS, Esq., C.B., C.M.G.
A. J. HARDING (Secretary).
Mr. J. FOSTER, called and examined.
u are the head of the Shipping
my and Navy Stores ?—Yes.
ly volunteered, in response to
s some evidence in connection
ur department? That is so.
you had a shipping depart. Navy Stores-24 years.
Navy Stores dates from about ot? It is about 34 years old. ing 24 years ago.
to do up to that time?--The out to shipping agents.
lid they give it to the agents? their orders from abroad and nt when did they invoke the gents?---When the goods were
ed ready for shipment.
s, whichever it was?-Yes.
⚫ course of procedure then--
I its shipping agents, gave the
e consignment, where it was to
gents would find a ship, make
the shipment, and charge us
80.
• insurance as well?-I am not I point, but I believe they did.
up the matter when your to be sent fo.b. or from your
n your case, I take it, would -At that time the bulk of it t now it goes from all parts.
freight and saw to its being
usel to see to the loading of uld be held responsible for t time.
that they actually went on sent clerks to the docks; it instance, the boat might be have a lot of cargo alongside. o see whether the goods were ot 7-Yes. Not in connection ship, but simply to see that Chind if the ship was running
process now as regards ship- form all the shipments our-
business throughout.
ou done that?-For 24 years; ent to the storen to take the
Ian of operations now?-The pared for shipment; then full
o shipping clerks in our own
aty to find a ship, arrange the
ds are put on board, to advise
is coming, how it is coming,
n the shipping documents.
4607. The whole of that is now done in your office? --Yes, the whole thing.
4008. You were appointed to take that position ?-- Yes, as shipping clerk.
4600. Do you superintend it all now?—I do.
4610. What experience had you had when you went to that office?-1 had had seven years,, chiefly in the South African trade-four years in London and three years at the Cape.
4611. Where you had to do the same class of work? -I saw it all.
4612. For an export house?--Yes, & house which bought and shipped-bought for different marks at the Cape and arranged for the shipment throughout. 4613. (r. Bailey.) They were not shipping agents pure and simple?-No, the firm I am speaking of were merchants; they bought for different houses at the Onpe and shipped the goods and employed their own ship- ping clerks to look after it
I
4614, (Chairman.) Can you give us any idea as to the comparative cost? Was it a saving to the Army and Navy Stores?-Oh, yes; it is a long time ago. have been trying to look up records, and I cannot put my hand on them; but I recollect drawing up a return showing a considerable saving the first year. course, their shipments were smaller then than now; the volume of business was smaller then than it is
Now.
Of
4015. Could you give us any particulars as to the rates you used to pay to these shipping agents when they did the whole work-the rates you found were being paid when you entered upon your duties? Was
it so much a bale or case?-It depended upon the size of the consignment; some would come through at parcel rates and others were charged at tonnage rates. We were then shipping a good many small consignments, and they made their charges by dissect- ing shipments as they made them, charging us a pro- portion for this package and for that package, and so
on.
4616. Had they a regular schedule?—I do not think they had; it was just a little bit loose at that time.
4617. Did they do it all through one firm ?—The great bulk of it; the Consinental part of the business went through a City house and the rest of the business went through the other firin.
4618. Of course, you had not worked under the old regime-No; it was because they did not care about the old regime that they took me on, I suppose.
4619. Do you know what led them to take up the work? Were they not satisfied?---They were not satis- fied; evidently they considered they could save money by doing the work themselves, because there was quite sufficient to employ a certain number for the whole of
their time.
4620. (Sir Ralph Moor,) This work is done from your office in Westminster?--Yes,
4621. You do not find it necessary to have an office in the City? No, we do not. We do a "tremendous lot over the telephone and have a good system of telephones, and then I have one or two men running backwards and forwards-juniors-to lodge and take
AA 2
S
PUBLIC RECORD OFFICE
Reference :-
C.O.885
19 PUBLIC RECORD OFFICE, LONDON
ALLY WITHOUT PERMISSION OF THE BE REPRODUCED PHOTOGRAPHIC-
COPYRIGHT PHOTOGRAPH--NOT TO