CO885-(19-20) — Page 22

PUBLIC RECORD OFFICE

Reference :-

C.O.885

19 PUBLIC RECORD OFFICE, LONDON

ALLY WITHOUT PERMISSION OF THE BE REPRODUCED PHOTOGRAPHIC- COPYRIGHT PHOTOGRAPH-NOT TO

184

27 October 1908]

CROWN AGENTS' ENQUIRY COMMITTEE:

Mr. T. H. HOLT.

knowledge, especially for the particular cargo which.. the Crown Agents deal with; there are always com- plications arising on such a varied business, as you can understand.

4453. (Chairman.) Bir Ralph Moor's point is (and I tried to put it in another way), that that information some of us are inclined to think ought to be at the Crown Agent's Office and not simply in the shipping office, which has nothing to do with the Colonies?— But we are practically part of their business.

4454. You are not in communication with the Colonies, and it would render, 1 venture to think, their correspondence with the Colonies much more in- telligent if they did know more?-I do not think so, because, as far as the shipping to the Colonies is con- cerned the Crown Agents have everything handed to them cut and dried, and they have only to send out the advices and invoices.

4455. It is too much cut and dried; they have too mack head nursing. How long have you done the shipping business for the Tanjong Pagar Dock Board? -Not more than three years.

4456. How has your business with them gone on?— Very well indeed.

4457. Who had done that work for them before?- They had an office in London.

4458. And they did it completely themselves —Yes. 4459. You recollect there was a correspondence with the Crown Agents as to your charges 1-Yes.

4460. And you sent a full explanation. Has that question arisen again?—No.

4461. Have they accepted your explanation ?—Yes.

I understand they are extremely satisfied.

4402. Have you had any complaints as to the way in which you have done your work 1-None whatever. 4463. Do you get encomiums from some Colonies and blame from others?-We never get encomiums from any of the Colonies, but you very soon hear the re-

verde.

4464. If anything goes wrong?—Yes.

4465. Do some Colonies grumble more than others? -Taking them as a whole they do not very much; the matters are generally easily explained.

4466. How much time would be spent in your office over that matter? Would it take a man's whole time to deal with complaints?—Not very much, I hope.

4467. With regard to delays and things, because I suppose any question of delay is sent to you?—Yes, we have to explain it.

4468, What do you estimate is a fair time for the execution of an order, for them to receive the goods when you have had intimation as to the contractors chosen?-For the Colonies to receive the goods?

4460. Yes?--That would depend on the trade. 4470. Take, for instance, Ceylon?—There is a boat a week.

4471. How long do you estimate between the time you receive the order and they get their goods?—I think you must put it as the time the goods are due.

4472. That is just what I do not want to do; that is no satisfaction to the man sitting in Colombo; he sends his order away on, say, the 1st of January, and it is here in a fortnight?-We are continually pressing all the contractors.

4473. What is the sort of time you lay down in your office: "Now we must see to it that, for instance, goods for Ceylon get there on an average unless any thing special has occurred within a certain time." Within what time do your office understand that there will be rows with someone if those goods are not got there?-Very often the Colonies give the date they require them, and that is worked to.

4476. Which have to be made?-Some goods are quickly made and others are not.

4477. (Mr. Bailey.) So far as you know there is no particular date of that kind kept in view by the Crown Agents?--Not unless the Colonists specify that they want cargo at any particular date. Then every- body tries to work to it.

4474. What would you allow in the case of Ceylon! I think that is rather too large a question to answer straight off.

4475. You do not ship to Australia, but it is always reckoned with as that four months should be a fair time for them to get the goods from the time the order is received here?-For goods which are in common use.

4478. How many items as a rule do you enter on a bill of lading, and what governs the number?— Nothing whatever; we have had bills of lading with thousands of packages on them.

4479. Supposing you had a number of different packages all going by the same ship, they would not necessarily go on the same bill of lading?-No, each requisition of each department practically wants a separate bill of lading on account of the routine of the offices in the different Colonies.

4480. You ship a good deal by what are called the Conference Lines necessarily?—Yes.

4481. There are rebates coming from those?—Yes. 4482. Do you collect those rebates?—Yes.

4489. How often?-Whenever they are due; they are due at certain periods always, and those are col- lected and paid over.

4484. You do not know whether they are absolutely credited to the Colony ?—Yes, undoubtedly; Sir Ernest Blake, in his evidence before the Shipping Commis- sion, was asked that question.

4485. You get nothing for the collection of those rebates?—No, we get nothing from the Crown Agents except what is shown.

4488. You say in regard to insurance that, "it is the practice of the Crown Agents when, in each year the premiums payable by such Colonies as insure have to be agreed, to refer it to the shipping agents to check the rates." Will you kindly explain what you do there?The London Assurance, at the end of every year, furnish a schedule of premiums which they pro- pose to charge for the ensuing year.

4487. For the different risks?—Yes. Then this schedule is sent down to us to state whether they are fair and reasonable, and we have to make all the inqui- ries we can and check them and make suggestions, and we have often obtained considerable reductions.

4488. (Chairman.) If you do all your business with the London Assurance, how are you able really to check them?-We can always check insurance pre- miums by Lloyd's.

4489. Yes, but do you never give Lloyd's any busi- ness? No.

4490. Do you mean to say Lloyd's are willing to be a jackal to the lion?-After you have been in the City some considerable number of years you get to know people,

4491. I know you get to know people, but if you never give them any business 7—There is always some way of getting it.

4492. (Mr. Bailey.) That is one of the advantages no doubt which you would claim for having a separate office from the Crown Agents?--Yes.

4409. What exactly do you do in the way of ship. ping coal? Coal is inspected, is it not?-Yes.

4494. That must be inspected when it is absolutely on board the vessel, must it not?-The Crown Agents have got an inspector down at Cardiff. As a matter of fact, we have very little to do with the coal.

4495. It is only a small item 7-Yes; the large con tracts for coal the Crown Agents make themselves, and sometimes the Colonies do.

4496. I see you mention here "Coin, bronze, as above package rate." Which rate would that be the one package, or two packages, or three packages rates mentioned here 1-Yes.

4497. Would you kindly explain what parcel receipts are?-When a shipment consists of a single package of under the value of £5 it is not worth while incurring the expense of making out separate bills of lading, and the shipping companies have now got into the habit of issuing what they call a parcel receipt for it.

MINUTES OF EVIDENCE.

Mr. T. H. HOLT.

4198. (Mr. Harriz.) You mentioned to the Chairman just now that very often there were 12 or more items on a single shipping order that came down to you. That strikes me at first sight as a little bit of a muddle. Can you explain it?-For instance, here is your order (illustrating by a piece of paper), and I put down: Rails, Bolckow, Vaughan and Co., due 17/10/08. Sleepers from Guest, Keen and Co., and fastenings from another company,

to the one order?-

4499. What brings those on Because they are on one requisition; each one of these is a separate contract. We have had thirty different items on one shipping order,

4450. Are you bound to see that those are shipped by the same vessel, or have you any latitude?—Yes, when you have orders for rails they are frequently split up.

4501. (Chairman.) Those 12 different items might be made in 12 different parts of England and come from different ports?—Yes.

4502. (Mr. Harris.) The question which suggests itself to me is whether it would not be better to have a separate shipping order? That would only increase the work unnecessarily.

4509. Later on you used the phrase "posted," and said that you used the post as much as possible: do you mean that you arrange for posting direct through to the Colonies by Parcels Post, or that you have them delivered here and then shipped?-What I mean is this, that when the Crown Agents accept an order they send a blue form (I do not know whether you have Even it), and one of the conditions is that if the pack- ages are too small for shipment and come within the regulations of the Post Office the contractors are to post them.

4504. (Mr. Bailey.) And you have nothing to do with them?Nothing, and it would be an unnecessary

expense.

4505, (Mr. Harris.) And yet they come through your hands-No, not at all.

4506. You have nothing to do with those postal orders-No, except in the case of stores from Govern- ment departments like the Arsenal at Woolwich; they send most extraordinary packages.

4507. By post-They will deliver to you a brown paper parcel of an inch long sometimes with a pair of scissors in it.

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[27 October 1908

4508. Why did you refer to the matter of the post- age if it does not come through you ?---Because we do post these stores from the Arsenal and other places.

4509. In a few occasional cases?--Yes, and some- times stores are delivered at our office, say, lymph and things like that from institutes or doctors, which we sometimes post.

4510. You post these from your office?-Yes, we people. have always got a lot of little packages from different

4511. Would you mind telling us what share in the work each of you three partners take, if you can?-- Yes.

Mr. Sergeaunt takes the financial part of it shipments. and the accounts business; Mr. Blake and I do the

4512. That is to say, I suppose, you generally do the supervision by correspondence?—Yes.

4513. Do you over yourself go to see contractors and so forth ?-I have done.

4514. But that is a rare thing -Very rarely; we are always seeing them; they come to our office.

4515, Can you give us an idea of the size of your office the number of rooms you use, and so on?--Ou

the ground floor we have two, on the first floor we have three, and on the second floor we have three- eight rooms in all.

4516. (fr. Bailey.) At the head of your shipping agents' tariff you mention "freight and primage (any returns to be allowed) charges paid out." That is somewhat cryptic to us; could you explain?-For in- stance. if we have to pay carriage or cartage, actual money out of pocket, then we charge them; if we take from De la Rue's postage stamps down to the docks we have to send our clerks with them all the way, and then we have to hire a cart, which is a small matter, and we charge cartage.

4517. Would you kindly tell means? It is an old custom of charging so much per us what primage ton, and 10 per cent. primage for the freight, and it has now got into a habit of returning the 10 per cent. primage as rebate.

4518. (Sir Ralph Moor.) When you can get it?- When we can get it.

4519. The Shipping Commission went into that question ?—Yes.

The witness withdrew.

Mr. M. S. DARKOCH, called und examined.

4520, (Chairman.) You are the deputy heard of the Shipping and Checking Department of the Crown Agents' Office 7-Yes.

4521. How long have you been in your present posi- tion?-Just upon a fortnight.

4522. Were you in the Crown Agents' Office before that-Yes, I was in the Pay Office.

4529. Had you had anything to do with your present work in any way until you came to the office a fort night ago? No.

1524. Therefore do you know a great deal about it at present-No; I know nothing about the shipping section because the department is fairly well divided into two halves, one checking and one shipping, and I have so far dealt with the checking only.

4525. Checking what?-Checking the bills of con- tractors who have supplied goods and passing them to the Pay Office, which then pays them,

4526. (Mr. Bailey.) Which is your section ?—I am to be No. 2 in the department and over both sections. 4527. Which are you supposed to be more particu- larly attached to?-Sir Ernest Blake's intention is to fuse the two into one, though that is not quite done yet. I am to be equally attached to both, but as a preliminary step I have started on the checking,

4528, (Chairman.) How long have you been in the Crown Agent's Office altogether?-About ten years, I think.

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4529. Where were you before?--I was in an insur- ance company-the North British.

4530. Were you in any office before that?—No. 4531. In the North British and the Crown Agents', how many years would that include altogether --Fif-

teen.

4532. You have now been put to the deputy head- ship of the shipping end. What are your duties as deputy head of the shipping-That I have not started on at all yet, because my chief, who was away when I arrived in the department, counselled me in a letter he wrote to me to refrain from touching the shipping at first.

4533. Who is your head?-Mr. James.

4534. Therefore at present you have had nothing to do with the shipping?-Nothing at all.

4535. (Mr. Bailey.) What becomes of the shipping in the absence of Mr. Janies if you do not touch it?- Mr. Reade is in charge of that at present. He will be able to tell you all about it, as he has been there a considerable time, and Mr. James told me he could take absolute charge for the present.

4536. (Mr. Harris.) Then I understand your time is now taken up entirely in seeing to the checking of contractors' accounts, with a view to passing them for payment 7-That is so.

1537. That is absolutely all?—Yes.

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