170
31 July 1908.]
CROWN AGENTS' ENQUIRY COMMITTEE:
Sir E. BLAKE.
4002. We had evidence from Bir Bradford Leslie that the consulting engineer gave the decision, and that the Crown Agents were not referred to?--Under the contract he is the judge; they have bound them- selves to build a railway of a certain type, and the engineer is the judge of whether they do build it of that type. That is the position.
4003. But I take it that it is within the power and the discretion of the consulting engineer, on a very important question of that sort, to refer to the Crown Agents, and the Crown Agents to refer to the Colonial Office? If thes people do not like the decisions it is open to them to appeal; our consulting engineers say, as a matter of fact, that the local representative has been far more reasonable than the people on this side. 4004. (Sir Ralph Moor.) The consulting engineer, who is the critic, is employed by the Crown Agents?— He is employed on behalf of the Government.
4005. By the Crown Agents?-He was mended and approved for the appointment. We are not technical people, of course.
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4006. I only wanted to get it on the notes that the consulting engineer who was criticising the work was the consulting engineer appointed by the Crown Agents on behalf of the local Government f-That is so.
4007, (Chairman.) There is a fourth matter which I have put on my notes, but which I overlooked when I suggested to you the form in which we would take your evidence, and that is with regard to the shipping. You have an arrangement, I understand, with Messrs. Free- land-They have been the shipping agents of the Crown Agents ever since the starting of the office some- where about 40 or 50 years ago. The firm has gone on and has always acted as the agents.
4008. The question put by the Committee as the best way to get your evidence would be: Is it the best plan that you should have one agency like this with whom you liave been in close touch for a number of years, or would it be a better plan to adopt either of these two alternatives, either to have the whole thing in your own hands in your own office, or to throw it open to open tender? That is a question I was asked before the Shipping Rings Commission, and there is no doubt that the present system is far and away the best.
4009. Will you tell us why?-Wo require someone in the City who is in touch with the shipping people, who knows them all, and they get very much better terms for us than we could get for ourselves.
4010. You might have a shipping office of your own? Yes, but we should have to employ a man of that class, and it is far better that they should be inde- pendent people; that is to say, they are entitled to do other business and all they have to do is that they have the same position as we occupy to the Secretary of State they have to justify to us that they have got the very best terms possible.
4011. (Sir Francis Mowatt.) They have a large out. side business have they not?-Not very large, but they have a certain amount of business; the tendency of our business, I am sorry to say, is to kill private business; there is such an enormous amount of it that it tends to kill the other business.
4012. That tends inore and more to limit the Agent from being in touch with the shipping people?---No. because he is in the City and he is in contact with these people and knows them all; these sort of people in the City go in rings to a certain extent, and the shipping people are a class by themselves.
4013. (('hairman.) How did your connection with Freeland's commence?—I cannot tell you; it was long before my time.
4014. It is lost in the mists of antiquity?—Yes. It was the father of the late Mr. Freeland who started the connection.
4015. (Mr. Gibson.) Have the rates paid to them been long in force 1-They vary from time to time; we reduce them from time to time.
4016. The Admiralty gave us their rates: would there be any objection to having the rates paid by the Crown Agents, confidentially?—No; but you must not
compare our rates, for this reason, that the enormous bulk of our business is absolutely trumpery.
4017. (Chairman.) Why trumpery -lt is so small; if you ship big quantities you get a very small rate for doing it, but if you are doing a quantity of small orders here, there, and everywhere, the Agent must be paid more for it. Mr. Nicholson gave evidence the other day and you saw how very small the shipping rate worked out at.
4018. The volume is enormous.-It is like our own business; there is an enormous volume of work, but the individual items, as a rule, are perfectly trumpery. That was a question I had to bring before the Ship ping Rings Commission. You have no conception of the smallness of many of the orders.
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4019. (Sir Francis Mowatt.) You very rarely take up a whole cargo1-Hardly ever. When the Uganda Railway was being built we did; then we were able to fill up our ships with coal, and we chartered a great many ships, and
very successfully done. That was a point brought before the Ship- ping Rings Commission. The Colonies, as a rule, want their things immediately, and we have to get them off; we cannot collect and store them, but we have to send them off at the first opportunity.
4020. (Sir Ralph Moor.) You could send us the rates you actually do pay ?--Yes.
4021, (('hairman.) Will you please instruct your secretary to send them to us? We will bear in mind I think my the difference you say there is ?---Yes. evidence before the Shipping Rings Commission would in some respects be very instructive to the Committee, because they took me over this ground.
4022. Will you send it to us?-You have it on re- cord at the Colonial Office.
4023. (Mr. Bailey.) Does your evidence discuss the practice of other large establishments?-No, they had been taking the evidence of other people, and they asked me as to our practice,
4024. Are you aware that the Army and Navy Stores, who do a very large export business, employ their own staff for the shipping business?-I am not aware of it; but it is perfectly common to do it. I think myself that the practice of the Admiralty, the War Office, and the India Office, and ourselves, is the preferable one; that is to say, to have an inde pendent agent. A man of our own, I think, would first of all find it extremely difficult to get in touch with the shipping people.
4025. Do you know that the Army and Navy Stores say they do not have any difficulty in that way?—I know nothing about the Army and Navy Stores.
4026. They make very large savings by employing their own men?—I daresay they may save in that way, but I doubt whether they would make as good bar- gains, and the character of our business is quite dis- similar to that of the Army and Navy Stores.
4027. (Sir Francis Mowatt.) You said that you from time to time revised the rates?—Yes.
4028. In carrying out that revision of the charges have you ever found out what is being charged for similar business?-When we go into these questions we ask questions and get the necessary information; from time to time I have seen people from the Admiralty and the War Office; and when the Boer War was going on that question was discussed.
4029. That is between the other departments and yourself!-Yes.
4030. You have had no opportunity of consulting with men in the open market?-The men of the open market, as a rule, do their shipping business them selves, and that, perhaps, brings me to a point. It was a most terrible mistake, forcing me to resign my directorships. I was in touch with a great many of this sort of people and I got the most valu- able information when I was in the City. The Crown Agents are expected to know everything and to do their work as well as anybody, and yet at the same time they are cut off from the means of getting that information. It was most valuable information to me, because I talked with these men, saying: “How do you
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