PUBLIC RECORD OFFICE
Reference:-
C.O.88
885
19 PUBLIC RECORD OFFICE, LONDON
ALLY WITHOUT PERMISSION OF THE BE REPRODUCED PHOTOGRAPHIC- COPYRIGHT PHOTOGRAPH-NOT TO
126
20 July 1908.]
CROWN AGENTS' ENQUIRY COMMITTEE:
Mr. E. G. ASTROBIS.
2701. (Sir Francis Mowatt.) The rest of the engin eering officers, you think, might be classified in the thre classes we have read out!--There is a deputy head of the Works Department and there are two deputy heads of the Inspection Department.
2702. That would be three seputy heads? Yes, there is the head of the Works Department, the head of the Inspection Department, one deputy head of the Works Department, and two deputy heads of the In- spection Department.
2703, (M), Leafless These rank as technical posts, and would be filled from outside by selection ? They must be.
2704, (Mr. Gikan.) You would hardly get the right technical maple to come in for £100; their minimum at present is £2502–They have come in at £279, and
A they would not come in at £100.
· 2705. (Chairmra.) It is a curious thing that at this time of day, especially in Downing Street, no men- tion has ever been made of the ladies: how do you verait them?-There are a large number of applien- tions always, and they are noted, and then they are selected. The senior Crown Agent selects then as a rule.
2706. (Mr. Lathes.). Are they examined at all?—No. 2797. Not even in typewriting and shorthand?- No. As a general rule they are taught their 15pewriting after they come. Some have come in as Shorthand
writers.
2708, (Mr. Gibsuf You never go to the Civil Ser- vice Commissioners for them ?—No.-
2709. Although they are fully trained before they are sent out from there!--That is
2710, Is it not somewhat inconvenient that you have people that you have to teach typewriting to-I think it is learnt in a very short time, but they are not all employed at typewriting and shorthand half of them are employed in the Stock and Coupon Office.
2711. (Chairman) You say the technical staff who
join the offic. later in life than the clerical staff desire a settlement of the question as to what allowance should be made in respect of this as to pensions. In resport of what?—In respect of joining the office later in life so that they would not be able to serve their time, but I believe there is a representative coming to you from the technical staff on that point.
matter that requires 2712. You think that is a attention That is why we put it in: I believe it is provided for in the Civil Service,
2713. Finally you say that the appointment of secre- tary has on each occasion been filled from outside. It is hoped that some arrangement may b made by which the staff should be considered both in connection with the post of secretary and with that of one of the Crown Agents. In fact, you want the promotion to go on right to the top ?—Yes.
2714. Is there discontent in the office?-There has been great discontent about the secretary.
2715, (M). Gibson.) May we have some explanation of how the post was filled, and how it was filled from the Colonial Office?--I am afraid I cannot tell you.
2716. What was the assumed necessity for the ap- pointment?--I think the chief reason for the appoint- iment was the enormous amount of signing of cheques that went on principally, and of the passing of draft letters of minor importance.
2717. 4 the chief clerk not in a position to do that, or is he too busy to supervis drafts-I was men tioned with regard to it, but it was thought that my work was to important to permit of my taking up the post of secretary, too.
2718. At any rate. I take it that, although the salary of the secretary rises to £1,080 a year, the work is not so important as that of yourself and per- haps other heads of departments --No, I think not.
2719. Although it is given a higher maximum — Yes.
2720. (Mr. Lathes.) We were tall that all the letters were opened in the presence of the secretary; does not that make him the centre of the whole business of the office? He marks the letters off to the rooms that are to deal with them.
2721. You regard that as an ordinary administra
ngard tive duty which anybody could perform ?—Yes.
2722. (Mr. Gibson.) He does not fill a position simi- lar to that of the Secretary to the War Office or the Admiralty; he does not bring together the whole work of the office, and, so to speak, review it and put it before the Crown Agents?-No.
2723. He has no work of that sort; he is not a co ordinating authority - No, he has nothing whatever to do with my work, for instance,
2721, (Chairman.) 1 he necessity-1 do not know.
1795, (Ms, Leathes.) Yon report direct in the Crown Agents without passing through the secretary?—Yes,
2726. Do all the heads of departments report direct to the Crown Agents?--Yes, except that with regard to rertain departments the minor drafting of letters goes to the secretary-that is to say, in the Pay Office they write a number of letters to people about the salaries they pay, al so on; these letters are nothing very important and they go before the secretary to approve anil sign.
2727. (Mr. Bailey.) Is that the main part of the secretary's duty ?-That 1 cannot tell you because I really do not know.
2728. (Mr. Leatkra.) Does the secretary exercise a discretion as to what letters he lets go on to the Crown Agents and what he deals with himself? Yes, I sup- pose he does, but he is not dealt with direct for any important letters.
2729. If you consider a letter important you take it straight to the Crown Agents?– Straight to the Crown Agelits.
2730. (Mr. Gibson.) And also as regards promotions, they are made on the recommendation of the head of the department, and not the secretary !--Yes.
2731, (Chairman.) You mean to say that you have got on quite well without him in the past?-As far as
know, perfectly well.
2732. And you could in the future?--I think so. 2733. (Mr. Lathes.). May I ask if the Crown Agents have private secretaries ?--No.
2731. (Mr (libs) Has the secretary any large clerical staff distinctly attached to lum as secretary- No, he is supposed to be, in a sort of way, head of the Appointment Branch, but there is another head there. He is also supposed to look after the Indies in I lo the correspondence branch to a certain extent. not know what he does.
2785, (i Albert Spicer.) 1 take it the Crown Agents act us principals in a private concern would, and they only consult the heads of departments as far as they think right. You can only surmise what their pinions were when they appointed the secretary ?-- Leg.
2736. And when the secretary is appointed you are not consulted as to whether he is timcessary ?--Cer- tainly not.
2737. They manage the office simply as principals, There are no rules or regulations governing the ap pointments. or increments, or promotion; they manage it as they think fit? That is so
2734, (Mr. Gibson.) Was the appointment of secre- tary suggested by the Colonial Office or by the Crown Aptents Il not know.
2738, (flatirman.) In the end of your pricis you say that you think an arrangement might be made by which the staff should be considered (that is, co- sidered us eligible. I suppose) in connection with the Just of secretary, and with that of one of the Crown Agents. Why one? If one, why not three? We had in mind that it is better to get outside experience for part of the Crown Agents, at any rate.
270, Which part-It brings new ideas, now blood into the office, at the top of the tree. Our only thought was that one of the Crown Agents might be promoted from the staff as having an intimate knowledge of the work of the office.
2741, (M). Gibson.) You are talking of the clerical staff; one of the Crown Agents 18 suppowd to be a technical officer-a Royal Engineer?—Yes.
i
MINUTES OF EVIDENCE.
Mr. E. G. ANTHORUS.
2742. And therefore the heads of the Works Depart- ment aml of the Engineering Inspection Branch might look to fill that position? Yes, but they never have
done so.
2743. With regard to the various methods of recruit- ,ing you have, you appear to have had some people in who passed a Civil Service examination, others who have been appointed from boy clerks, and others from I take it these varieties of methods Jarre etation. jent the fact that it is rather difficult to get one recognised service either all by people from imination or otherwise?—I think so.
2711. And therefore it would be unch simpler and Lore satisfactory to have one universal method of en- Faste:-1 thnk su
2515, (Mr. Lathes.). Could you tell the what is the maximum salary for a class IV, clerk. I do not mean the masmum to which he might attain, but the maxi- It is £160, as far num to which anyone does attain.
Fran That is right, and he is going up to
"
420.
2746. (Mr. Harris.) I should like to ask a few Gastrons with a view to getting you to inform the Committer drow your work compares with that of a Government Department, Could you say briefly what work you personally do?—I wrote out a state- goat of what work I de personally.
2717. (kairman.) Without reading it all coubl you give us a brief resume of the kind of work you do! I elf clerk aul acevantant, and I have under me an assistant accountant and deputy chief clerk ami a Stas of 26,
127
20 July: 1908.
2736. (Mr. Gibson.) You would draft the letter under instructions; the lines would be given you by the Senior Crown Agent 7-Yes, generally after talk- ing it over.
2757, (Mr. Harris.) Does your deputy draft sume. times for you?—Yes, all the lesser important letters ip drafts.
2758. Can you tell us how often you see the: Crown Agents? Are you constantly or very rarely in touch with them ?--Constantly.
2759, On the other hand, how often do you see your subordinates? Are you in constant touch with them I -Constant touch.
2700, Right down to the bottom, or only with the section heads-Practically right down to the bottom; We are arranged so that our subordinates are all in adjoining rooms to us, and one sees them all day long. 2761, (Mr. Leathes.) May I ask if you administer a reprimand yourself or do you tell your subordinate to --It entirely depends, if it is not very great I tell my subordinate to do it, but if it is great. I do it myself.
2702. You would do it yourself?-Distinctly.
do
*
2763. In the presence of your subordinatel-Not necessarily.
2704. You send for people quite freely without regarding the intermediate" ranks?- Certainly.
2765. (Mr. Harris.) Have you any knowledge of the working of city offices? I mean, a broad general knowledge which you may have pickel up?--Yes, I
2766. Are you able in any way to assist the Com mittee by comparing your working with that of a bank or a large accountant's offic-No, I do not know that I am; one goes in and sees banks and is in consultation with them, but I could not compare them.
Jinve. As chief clerk I have to attend to the koping of the salaries of the office, the general control the staff and of the office, and of the repairs of the tice and the building generally, control of the sta- tropery store and the ordering of the stationery and surall stores and various other things. As accountant I have to deal with the provision of the necessary funds for each of the Colonies and Protectorates, for kejung sufficient bank balances for those purposes, and the employment of such balances as each Colony may have in excess of its requirements. I do that on the lines approved and laid down by the Crown Agents. Shall I say how these funds are used ?
2744. Yes, but we have had a good deal of evi- deuren that point.-1 draft the majority of the hters to the Clonies and to the Colonial Office on financial questions.
2749, (Sir Francis Mowatt.) Does the secretary draft any very important letters? Is it his right to do that? -No financial letters.
2750. Do you know, outside your own department, whether he drafts any other letters – I could not say for certain. I draft any financial letters as a rule.
2751. Are you aware whether the exceptionally im- portant letters are drafted in consultation among the Crown Agents themselves - All letters which are to the Crown Agents for approval, and they drafted are all done in consultation with the Crown Agents.
2752. That is not quite my question. If there were any important negotiations with the Colonies going would the important letters be drafted by the Crown Agents themselves or would the drafts come up to them from the separate divisions, and do they approve and amend them? -It is a matter of arrange- ment with the Crown Agents generally; in my case it 2; I deal with Sir Ernest Blake, and it is a matter of arrangement; sometimes he will ask me to draft a kter, and at times he will draft it himself.
2753, (Chairman.) There is a very gal instance: Will you tell me who drafted a recent letter about the Jamaien £50,000), the question as to whether the Treasury or your Department should Jend ?—I drafted that letter and sent it up for approval to Sir Ernest Blake.
matter
2751. That is a good instance, because it is f principle, that is to say, which should lend, and a very remarkable case. You drafted that? Yes.
2755. That is the kind of thing you do?-That is the kind of thing I do in consultation with Sir Ernest Blake.
In that particular case it was Sir Ernest Blake's idea that we should do that.
2767. Do you think you have any more trouble or any more ease in maintaining discipline in a depart- ment immediately under you than they have in a City office --None, I think.
2768. Or do you think that there is any great lif ference between your lice and a Civil Service office you may have known?--I do not think so; I do not find any difficulty in maintaining discipline.
2760. Who initiates the work in your particular department? Is it always the Crown Agent or you yourself or asionally 7- 1 van hardly answer the ques tion. The letters are marked off to ine and they come down, but sometimes they will come down with a remark of Sir Ernest Blake's on the top saying, "Do so and so." and at other times they coine down with nothing. and I write a memoran luia.
2770. Either to your subordinates or to take in- structions?—Yes.
2771. At what point do you see the work after that? -Directly.
2772. When you draft a letter, does it come back to you - Yes, it goes up to the Crown Agent, who approves it and sends it to the correspondence room, where it is copied, and then the draft comes back again to me.
2773. And, finally, before it goes oll?—I do not sea it again before it goes off.
2774. You see the approved draft ?—I do.
2775 What are the office hours of work?-Practi- cally 10 to 5, and 10 to 1 on Saturdays.
2776. Any lunch interval?—Three-quarters of an hour interval. Of course, we work very often much later than 5. I have been there at times up to 13 o'clock at night if we have any special pressure on.
2777. You are the accountant; do you see to the kepong of the books also?--Yes, it is all done in
y department.
2778. Of course, by competent men under you ?---
Yes.
2779. Have you had men brought in for that par- pose as accountants, or do you, as a rule, train them yourselves?-Wo have trained them ourselves.
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