PUBLIC RECORD OFFICE
TILITI
Reference :-
C.O.885
19 PUBLIC RECORD OFFICE, LONDON
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122
CROWS AGENTS'
ENQUIRY
COMMITTEE:
TWELFTH DAY,
Monday, 20th July, 1908,
At the Colonial Office, Downing Street,
FELSENT:
COLONEL J. E. B. SEELY, D.S.O., M.P. (Chairman).
The Rt. Hon. Sir F. MowATT, G.C.B., I.8.U.
Sir Raru Moon, K.C.M.G.
H. J. Ginsos. Esq., C.B.
1. BAILEY, E., M. V.O., 1.8.6.
4
Sir ALBERT SPICER, Bart., M.P. S. M. Loxties, Esq.
C. A. HARRIS, Esq., C.B., C.M.G.
A. J. HARDING (Secretary).
Mr. E. G. Astmonts, cailed Bud examined.
·
2566. (Clairman.) You have sent us a precis of the evilence you wish to submit, and you legin by say- ing that, in the opinion of those whom you represent, the constitution of the office should not be altered. but that, while the powers of the Crown Agents should be maintained in all matters connected with the busi- system, ness of the dice, there should be some approved by the Secretary of State, by which the selve- tion of the staff, their salaries and pensions should be regulated": by those, whom you represent, do you mean the whole staff or any particular section * 1 man particularly the yeads of departments and the deputy heads of departments, whoan 1 represent espe cially.
2567. (Sir Francis Moncaft.) When you say "welve- tion." do you mean original appointment? - I mean original appeantntent.
2568. Not selvetion for promotion?—No, original pakmeni,
2569, (Chairman.) Perhaps you will tell us in your view what would be the best plan?-For original appointments?
2570. For original appantments and for the fixing of salaries and pensions?-My idea for original appointments is that, I suppose, there is nothing for it. now that the office is so large, but some system of In the old days, when the nice was examituation. small, it was a very different thing. When I first jenes the othce there were 2 people altogether, and The selection was a matter chielly of friends of the Crown Agents or soldier clerks.
2571. No as to get it on the Minutes, can you tell us how long have you been in the othee Nearly 30 years; I joined on the 31st January, 1979.
2572. From that time the office has increased from the 26 you speak of up to its present numbers? Up to about 190; they vary from time to time slightly.
2573. You think there should be some system of examination, but what system--the Civil Service or Some other-1 take it that it must be some system of Civil Service examination, but for our own part we an doubtful as to how we should be classed if we were male a Government office.
We do 2574. Will you explain that more fully not know what sort of classes we should come inte in the Civil Service system; otherwise, of course, the attraction of being a Government office is very great for security of tenure and your salary and pension.
2575. As to yourself, would you prefer to be a part of the onlinary Civil Service, presuming you lost nothing financially 7-Yes, I would if I lost nothing financially and came into a class I should feel I liked.
2576. As far as you know during all this time, what would the general view of the members of the staff be up that question?--I think that would by the general
Our only fear in the changing of the constitu tion of the office would be as to whether we should lose any status by coming under the Civil Service.
view.
2577. Perhaps you would tell us what in your view
We have no status. your status is?
2578. (Sir Francis Mowatt.) When you speak of status, do you use that word as distinguishing the first division and the Second Division of the Civil Service-Roughly, yes.
2579, (Chairmata.) What divisions have you now in The Crown Agents' Office? Have you anybody corros- powoling to the Second Division! "We have heads and leputy heads of departments, and what is called the third class, who are superior to the fourth class of clerk, who is equivalent to the Second Division clerk in the Civil Service. Of course, we have no examina- tion.
2580, How were you appointed first - Sir William Sargenant gave me my appointment. I had a nonsina- tion for the Bauk of England at the time, but Sir William Sargeannt said that he thought he could do something better for ine, and gave me this appoint-
25×1.AMr. Leathes.) Were you medically examined when you entered?-No; at least, 1 do not think I was; I cannot quite remember. I left school and went, straight in.
252. Is there any neslical examination now ?— As a rule, yes,
25×3, (t'hairman.) Not always-Not always, but the rule is yes.
25-4. When is there no medical examination — There have been cases where we have had boy clerks from the Civil Service for a long time, and they have ben taken on without any medical examination, but the rule is to have a medical examination.
256. The Committee would like to know more of your suggestions about selections on first appointment, nud perhaps I had better read what you have put in your precis, and you can . us upon that what your view is. You say, in regard to selection," This is a subject in which we are interested, in that we all wish the staff of the office to be efficient, and. for the work that has to be done we think it will always be found necessary to have two classes of the clerical establishment, for we are doubtful whether (except perhaps in some very special cases) the Tower-grade clerks, who are recruited chiefly from the boy clerks supplied through the Civil Service Commission, will ever be capable of carrying out the responsible duties now entrusted to the heads and deputy heads of depart- ments, or of the heads of sections of those depart- Upon that I should like to ask you whether. in your judgment, the heads, deputy heals, and heads of sections do work which is more or less mechanical, or whether it requires brain power? Certainly with the heads and deputy heads it requires brain power. and also with regard to the heads of sections.
Ele
258. Will yon give us instanes of those who do and those who do not want brains- Well, I do not know whether I could quite do that, but the work does vary very greatly. Some departments I do not know very much about nowadays, although I have worked through the office in overy department.
2587. We do not ask you to give an opinion upon the Crown Agents themselves. I can tell you about my own department, the heads of sections there require brain power; the head of one section, for instance, manages practically himself.
with
MINUTES OF EVIDENCE.
Mr. E. G. ASTROBES.
of tho invest- clerks under him, the whole ments of the office, that is to say, the calculation of the dividends and the arrangement of them, seeing that they go into the right places, and so on. They amount to Home £11,000,000,
2388. Plainly, he would require some brain power?
Y
2989. Would you give us another muştance?—The brad of a section in the store branch is responsible for the sending out of the tender forms and the estimate forms. and seeing, when they come back again, that they are correct; "he is absolutely responsible for that. 2590. Now that we understand there must be a lugh level of intelligence in some particular places, could you tell as what you mean by having two classes of the clerical establishment; supposing there were an examination, how would you set about it!- have not thought how I would set about it because I did not know that was quite what I had to give an opinion upon, but if it is a question of examination 1 think there ought to be two examinations, one of a
gher class than the other.
201, (Ni Francis Muwatt.) May I put it to you in this way. Where, in your establishment, would you draw the line between the first division examination At the heads of sections of depart- atul the second? unts.
202. The heads of section should be in the first class? Yes
25983. Any other !--Above them the deputy heads and heads of departments should be recruited from th- heads of sections.
2594. (Mr. Leathes.) You would put a man straight in to be the head of a section? I think so.
2555, (M». Haiby.) You would not have a 100 corresponding to the staff clerk, dint is to say, a man who has worked himself through the lower ranks and made him if thoroughly acquainted with all the details of the work, and who has shown by eliciency that he might be put to do something higher-Yes, I wonbl certainly promote at times from the fourth class or lower division clerk.
2506, Do you think the method I have suggested would not jorbaps be preferable to your own, where you take a boy in straight from school and put him at the head of a section - Of course, he goes to the head of a section, but there are always two heads of sections, aml in some cases four; that is to say, some times there is a heal and a deputy head of a section, although they do separate work, so that he would get taught his work in a very short time.
2707. Dr. Gikom.) Practically your fourth and bith classes, you may say, do the purely mechanical routine work of the oflice-That is so,
278. And you think if the fourth and fifth classes were amalgamated probably the work of the fourth and fifth class clerk could be done by somebly recruited from the assistant 'clerk or Civil Service abstractor typ në person ?--- Yes,
2. In fact, according to your present numbers, you have about 117 of these fourth and fifth class Toks, which is more than half the present staff of the atlies Yor
26. That shows there is a very large amount of purly routine work? -Yes, there is,
2801. You would draw the line above those, and appeunt a higher grade of person to Class HII. as it Tarek simtuls You.
302. But also you wonbb admit that in some cases it would be possible to give a certam proportion of promotion to the best men of the abstractor or fourth and fifth class type?—Yes,
2600), (Mr. Lentles) There may be said to be two ways of staffing a Government Office nowadays: the one which consists of boy clerks and abstractors, with salary of from £15 £150; seroul divisum. £70 to 2301; staff posts, £350 to £300; and Class 1.. we will say, £150 to £700; that is one way ? Yes,
2001. The simpler way, which is adopted in Mr. Gabson's oflier, consists of boy clerks and abstractors from £15 to £150, and one class of clerks whose normal. sulary may be said to be from £100 to £350, with a
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123
20 July 1908.
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number of higher posts filles) by promotion. Couki you give me an ilupression which of these two plans would suit yone office better? The latter of the two plaus, would suit cur office best. Wo require boy clerks, and a class of clerk similar to the second division clerk, who would have more ability than the abstractor type of clerk. We also require a higher grade of clerks who could fill the posts of heads of sections au rise to be deputy leads of departments and heads of depart 10-111. The salaries given to these posts might, roughly, be £100 to £50, £100 to £700,' and £550 to £700, but some exceptions would be necessary.
2605. There would be nothing above this class; they would be recruited by a special examination of their
2000. And all higher posts would be by promotion From that class! - Yo
2607. They would enter at the age of 15th D Yes
2008. That would suit you ?—Yes, it suits us exactly. 2604, Strictly speaking, you would have too Class 1. That is M.
2610, (Mr. Gibson.) I take it the ordinary heads of departments would be satisfied if they go the higher scale of pay Mr. Leathes has referred 10, namely, a scale of £550 to £700. You think that would fairly tueet the remuneration of the heads of departments, although, in the case of one or two special appoint- inents, there might, perhaps, be a difference?-For the ordinary head of a department I think that would do, 9:11. Then this deputy heads wombi practically be remunerated on the scale of £350 to £500/-Yes.
2012. (Sir Redpile Moor.) You say that for efficiency, in the case of an increase of the members of the staff, it would be advisable in the future that there shoubi by some entrance examination.. is one to infer from that that in the past, under the existing system, you have experienced or there has been experienced any difficulty in obtaining men of expacity for the higher ranks and daining" numbers for the lower?—În a way, no; most of the people at the top of the office now are people who have come in without any selection particularly, but we have got a good many people in the office who have tried for the class Mr. Leathes was mentioning just now, atol wh.. just failed in their examination.
2613, (Mr. Joalhes.) What we call the junior ap: print ments ---Yes, and we have written to the Civil Service Commission and obtained a certain qumber.
2814, (M., Gibson). You have had fer gentlemen in under that scheme Certainly five; I should have said we had ha-1 more,
2615, (Sir Balph Mona,) I take it you have not been alle te exercise the patrolinge which you have in your ollice; you have had to apply to the Civil Service Commissioners to get failures to supply yourselves. with. That is the fact, is it not? Yes to get men.
2616, (3). Gibson,) Woahl you say they wore fail utes, thasmuch as the Crown" Agents' Offre was not announced to be filled by these men? It may have been that there were not many appointments going at these particular examinations, and that men were selected for the Crown Agents who passed fairly high up, and would have got into the Crown Agents'"and" other offices if there had been a larger number of appoint. ments offered, as there have been since?-That is, I belive, 1 case.
9617. (ir Balph Moor. The fact is they were the failures for the examination they went in for? They vege musttoressful.
2018. (Mr. Baily.) May I put it in this way, that they were qualified, but not the most highly qualitie by examination, that is to say, they passed a qualify. ing standard?--I take it so.
2019. (Chairman.) You say there are no written re- gulations fixing the system of salaries either with regard to minimum or maximum salaries or annual increments. Has, in point of fact. the scale of sala- ries and annual increments been varied since you have been in the office!There has been nothing written as far as I know,
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