CO885-(18-19) — Page 751

PUBLIC RECORD OFFICE

Reference :-

C.O.885

ALLY WITHOUT PERMISSION OF THE BE REPRODUCED PHOTOGRAPHIC-

COPYRIGHT PHOTOGRAPH-NOT TO

19 PUBLIC RECORD OFFICE, LONDON

120

17 July 198

CROWN AG

AGENTS

ENQUIRY COMMITTEE :

Mr. F. W. BLACK, C.B.

on the non-pensionable list, and I have some power of getting junior men from commercial offices. First of all, there are the boys at the bottom who come from the Civil Service Conimission in the ordinary way. Then above that there are a number of junior clerks. or temporary assistants as we call them, who are largely recruited from the by clerks; some of them have been brought in from offices in the City, and sotuo perhaps have had a little practical experience in the Supply Departments or the Dockyard Offices.

2523. Will you tell us why you bring some in, and why su other cases you promote from the boy clerks who enter through the Civil Service? At the present time we frquently take boys who have had experience in the Service, when they are out of their time. that is, when they reach 20 or 21 and have not passed for the Civil Service: those who desit further employment from the Government enter their names on a list we keep for all Departments of the Admir alty, and if they are satisfactory those are the people to when we usually go for our junior cħerks. They have had so many years experience of a Goverment

thee.

2524. Do you go outside only when the normal supply fails-On that same list we should also enter the names of any applicants from commercial offices. If I had a vacaney in my office to-morrow I should go to the Secretary's list and book at all the names of suitable candidates. I should interview half-a-dozen of them. quite independently of whether they hal bven in the Civil Service or whether they came from a City office, and I should chose the man I thought the most promising.

2525. (Sir Francis Muratt.) What is the prospert of permanence of establishment to such a man as that? -There are three appointments only to which those mn can hope to succeed on the establishment. As a matter of fact, we have proposals at the present time slightly to increase that proportion.

2526. (Mr. Leathes,) These thne are Second Divi- sion Clerks?-No, they are men known as Senior Assistants.

2527. (Sir Francis Moratt.) What salary do they receive 7--220 by £10 to £300.

2798. And they, when they retire or their occupa- tion ceases, are ridt entitled to pension ?-These thre men are: these are pensionable appointments.

2520. That is a mere ward hell out to the tem porary staff. It is not only that it serves that purpes hat these men have rely direction; you may say that the hind ten serve under them in groups: we bk 1 them to take the loud and to assist the heads of branch-s in active supervisíval.

9530, Mr. Gilton.) Has it not on the res policy of the Amiralty generally to largely poner the temporary staff in 'n placement of the established staff? Take the case of the Acentant-tioneera's Department, they have 126 hurl Accountant Cerks?

-That is quite true.

2731. Does the same rason actuate the Accountant- Cereal that actuated the Director of Contracts whe

Ian har, en whether the eir ern-tattoos were similar. Possibly there was a great lordinary clerical work that would be done by hard porque in replacement of pusionals Civil Sersants,

2532. (Fairmont. You tell us that there are now a very large winder of hired or wen-pensionable servant- in the Admiralty; in your view, is it wish to atone tinue incrasing that portion of non-personal's persons, or would you wish the reverse to take place! -I wish to doerase the proportio, lait not alonen lutely to change the system.

יד

2533. You wish to decrease the propertion of non- peus, table persepsi all you tell us why Fo this

11 work of a Vestinet Depolstment inve many lelicate questions. Asama"tərəf system and prin ple and without any referens to integrity or quali fications of individuals it is in my opinion, puiforalle that a reasonable proportion of the staff should be on the pensionable list, Proposals for some modification

of the present proportion of the junior, temporary and permanent staff have lately been considered for my Department.

2534. (Sir Francis Moralt.) Do I gather from that that you think that the power of dismissing a man is not so good a check as the power of stopping his I think that. After the Department has Jenwich had six or seven years' experience, however, of the present system, we are practically maintaining it, fan mereasing the proportion of permanent men.

2535. I would like to ask another question upon that. You told us there were three established off- cers to which positions these temporary mơn might you called them hope to he eventually promotesi: three Senior Assistants? Yes.

2536. Should you say that the work to be done by these three Senior Assistants is work that could not be done if necessary by Staff Officers of the Second Division--Xo, 1 would not be prepared to say that. 1 think it could be done by experienced Second Divi- sion Clerks.

2537. So that the maintenance of these three places is really for the purpose of giving some prospect of permanence to the unestablishel men, and not be cause the duties to be performed are duties which could not satisfactorily be performed by established Second Division Clerks?--That is so, but I would like to make this clear, that the actual duties entrusted to these three unn are duties of supervision and dire tion to a large extent; they are of a more responsible character than those performed by the Temporary Assistants serving under them.

238. My point is that you would not hesitate to select a Staff Officer of the Second Division, a fairly

us being capable of doing thos ermpetent man, duties? That is so, but so long as we maintain this system, I think the appointments are a necessity,

2539). (Sir Albert Spirer.) Migh: 1 ask you, with gard to these 35 on the hins list, how are their salaries regulated?ere are rules--I am not "qui'e sure whether they are apprsed by the Treasury, but they are laid down at any rate by the Admiralty that they should be grouped into throw classes, with a maximum of about 729, jer wek. We begin in the lowest class, with about is rising to 35s.. then ther is an intermediate class rising to dis., and the class above rather limited one-rising to 72%.

2540, Out of these thirty-tive, if you have any who show themselves very comprcnt, have you the oppor. tunity of giving them special promotion or sprin increments --No; we should probab'y want a special sanction of the Treasury to dổ that.

2511. For instance, have you had any such case during the last thr years? No; I may say that that point is very much in slabt, in my own mind. I think, under a system of that kind. I ought to has that power, but, as matters stand. I have not.

2512. You could not do anything apart from your printed regulations withat applying to the Trea

I think n 1.

' ;ווי

2513. You have twenty who ar pensionable: the any opportunity for any of the twenty to ge special predion or special iner ments -- There is a r. I think I am not sure whether it has been abrogated by the rent changes affecting the Second -Division Clarks- by which the Treasury will apprens of a certain number of Second Division Clerks getting special iner nents,

--1

2514, Taking the ease of these twenty, has it ** curre" that any have bovu sedered for speriai per offers there is the calmary chance i promotion, first of all of the Higher Division Clerk That is a matter of Superintendang 0% absolute selection. There is always the possibility that a Stand Division Clerk may be bored with th approval of the Board of Admiralty and of the Tra sury for a vacancy as a High Division Clerk. The chance of promotion always statuls Is fore them Then there is the further possibility of a Second Pavision Clerk, letal number, each year, with Special Treasury approval, getting a special rate of increment. That has been done.

MINUTES OF EVIDENCE.

Mr. F. W. BLACK, C.B.

2545. During your time as Director, how many of your pensionable assistants have had special promo- tion: None have had special promotion, it two have had special rates of increment given to them.

2516. Can you tell me what they were? They were Second Division clerks, who received two years' incre ment instead of one.

2517. Would you mind me asking you this ques con: Hss your promotion been perfectly regular, or have you had special promotion or special increments In your own case? My promotion," I suppose, has been perfectly regular, but by that I do not mean to say in absolute order of seniority. I might explain I came into the service by 11 Lo you in this way. open corapetitive examination, and all the promotions I have received have been such as I might have expected in the ordinary course; but what led the Board of Admiralty to close que in preference to anyone semur tʊ me is more than I can say.

2518, (Chairman.) It is not pure seniority-No; 1 d not think it can be.

2548%. Otherwise you would not have got there so quickly!-No.

2519. (Sir Albert Sprev.) Some questions have been put as to the elasticity of the methods of the Civil Service as against the elasticity of an ordinary busi- ness department, and I wanted you, if you would not mind, to tell me about your own casePerhaps my id experience as Diretor of Stores will help you more than my present position. There I had charge of not nly a large headquarter staff of 70, but I had a very large staff scattered about all over the home dockyards - some sia kyards at home, and eight or ten dock- yards abroa-1- and it rested with me to make recom

the right hondations to the Board of Admiralty to get non into the right places,

2550). (Mr. Bailey.) 11 rested with you as the head of the Department to get the best men you could?. Yes, and it was not always possible to promote in strict order of seniority.

2531. (Sir Albert Spicer.) In your own case, was there any point where you received, if I might call sort of double promotion? - When I was selected for the post of Assistant Director of Stores I was not the setitor man in the Department.

11 su. 11

2552. Over how many heads, so to speak, did you jump-1 cannot say exactly, but I think it might have been four or five perhaps. 1 had very special experience at some of our foreign depôts, which I have no doubt counted with the Admiralty.

2553. Therefore, there is room for elasticity if the head of the Department exercises it and has the sup port of his superiors? That is the exact position.

9554. (Mr. Bailey.) And if he did not exercise that discretion, it is not too much to say that his Depart ment would soon become hopelessly ineficient?—I say So absolutely.

2555, (Mr. Gibson.). And does not a heal of a depart- Hent as a rule get the support of the Board The Board would require to be satisfied that the right and fair selections were made. In fact, I often had 16xplain these matters personally in addition to patting them down in writing. The Board asked me any questions they thought fit, and I was invariably supported.

2556. (Mr. Leathes,) May I ask when this plan of yours of having hired writers in place of established servants came into fores. It has been partly in use for many years in the dockyards, and we have always had a certain number of men in the Admiralty so far back as I can remember- the old Civil Service cupyists and temporary men; but this particular change came

→ 21

121

147 July 1908.

about in 1902, 1 think. In the shockyards prior to that, in most of our offices we had a large proportion of temporary men.

2557. (Mr. Gibson.) You do not go to the Civil Ser- vice Commissioners for the hired staff! No.

2558. (Mr. Luthes,) Those hired writers replace what we call abstractors? Yes, and perhaps in my Department one or two Second Division clerks were replaced in that way.

2570). Have you any experience yourself about these alstructors! Very little had a few in the Store Department, and we replace them in that Depart- men by men who had practical experience at the out- ports and dockyards.

2500. You would know, at any rate, that these in-s conveniences about their gang in for examuations could ly last for a year or two? I shoubh tuyself be prepared to take that risk; I thank the men who cam in by examination into any rank of the Civil Service are generally men of a very good average ability ani intelligence. Personally, I would take the risk and trust to the discipline of my office to obtain efficiency. A certain amount of change of junior staff within reason may not be bad for an office.

2501. There is no difficulty now, but do you not fore- see, perhaps many years hence, a great difficulty when you have all these hired writers on your han is, and you cannot discharge them because they would have to go to the workhouse?--I do think there may be some difficulty; at present they are young men, They have not much prospect of promotion in front of them, but as they get to be senior men and are more valuable in the office the position may be a intle diflicult; but we are making some improvement in the changes have referred to,

2582, (Chairman.) There is only one more question I want to ask you, and thai is one which 1 hög, you will answer as well as you can. It is of course obvious that there must always be a temptation, especially t the junior members of the staff. in any Contract Stores Department, of bribes or presents being offered ; it is a matter of cotamon knowledge that there must Is that danger. In your judgment, having been in the Service for a very long time, with that in view, which is the best type of staff, which wimbi you sooner choose in order to eliminate as far as possible any chance of dishonesty-- the prmanent Civil Service man with his pensión in view on the one hatel, or people rvernite from outside with more direct power of dismissal on your part on the other hand? My own personal preference would be for the Civil servant, but. in saying that. I wouldai wish to make th slightest reflection upon the integrity of my present

tatt.

253. We quite understand that you are speaking altogether in the abstract.-Yes, 1 say for my Depart trent that I do not believe anything of that"kind" bes ever happened either with the permanent staff or with the temporary staff.

2564. As between the two types the Committee wish to know your consideresl judgment which is the best in order to avoid all chance.-1 would prefer that a large proportion of the staff should be pensionable Civil servants, and that whatever numbers one had of -a hires staff should be not too great a priportion el We have the whole staff for adequate supervision. always in the Contract Department had a certain under on the non-pensionable list, but they were contined very much more in days gone by to routine duties. I am now obliged to employ some of them. on duties above routine," Of course, all their work is checked and supervised.

2565. (Sir Francis Moratt, The general disposition is to raise the limits of the work a little higher for the best men in the different classes?-I think it is distinctly that way.

The witness withdrew.

Adjourned to Monday next at half-past 10 o'clock.