PUBLIC RECORD OFFICE
Reference :-
C.O.885
19 PUBLIC RECORD OFFICE, LONDON
ALLY WITHOUT PERMISSION OF THE BE REPRODUCED PHOTOGRAPHIC- COPYRIGHT PHOTOGRAPH—NOT TO
112
17 July 20
CROWN AGENT~//ENQUIRY COMMITTEE:
Mr. 1. DE LA Birr. V.B.
various
many Spiter.) How 2294. (Sir Albert branches would that be distributed among-Of in- dustry?-
2295. Yes?-Practically every branch.
2298. How many would that mean? I think the Chairman will apprecinte what the 10,000 really means if you say it is 200 branches.—11 is quite that. Would you like me to read the annual advertisement which we put out? The articles purchased include anvils. belling, bisteads, blankets, cups and utensils, boxes and chests, engines, brooms, cables, candles, canvas and canvas goods, casks, chinaware, chemicals, glass, cloth, copper ware." and many others.
97. I thought you would be able to say 300 or 4007 --I have never reduced it to that, but it is practically overy:hing.
گزیر
248. (Sir Francis Moralt.) At all events it includes any firm of respectability who asks to be put on your list-1 would hardly like to say respectability: we inquire into their financial standing to begin with.
paug. You do not think that that is attement of resp stability —Yes, but I would not like to say that every firm we rejected because we thought it a little bit haky was not a respectable firm. Would you like me to real our instructions on the subject : "În order to cure the satisfactory quality of supplies, and the due observance of the House of Commons resolution in ngand to fair wages and sub-letting, and to safeguard the public from possible has arising from a contrac tor's failure to carry out his covenants, care will be taken to place onders only with persons or firms of Kei reputation, wat n cessarily to the exclusion of these in a small way of business. Transactions with agents and middlemen will l»- avoidol as far as pres sible, and orders for manufactured artich - limitel to actual manufacturers.”
2800, (Mr. Gileop.) The next paragraph really bears on that, too?--You ** Applications from par sons or firms desirous of being placed on the lists of the cligible to couțite for contracts will be cure fully side red. If satisfactory evidence is obtained that their means of production are sufficient, and that their puration both hunncially and for quality of manufacture and as employers of labour, is good, th request should be grantål after reference to the Dirers tor administering the vote, lant as a rule they shoubi only be entrusted with small trial order in the fir-t instance."
2301, dkiman.) You have not got papers here showing how many firms you have got on your steel and iron forgings list --Of course," that is a very restricted list, but 1 suppose we have about a dozen. I mean that the Erms That a very special item.
wh manufacture the sort of steel and iron forgings we require. which are mainly for guns, are very few in number.
2302. (Sir Francis Moraft.) Still you have got almost all of them on your list ?—Yes, roughly squeak- ing from memory, they run from 12 to 15.
2303, (Chairman) flow many for rail and fish- plates About 25; we do not buy very much of that. as we do not have much railway work.
What we are
2304, Ranges, grates and stoves"? trying to get at is whether. in point of fact, your system of inviting people to come on your list producer a great many more firms than the plan adopted in the Crown Agents' Office?--Your trust remember that most of our purchases are to more or less special pat- tern, and that is, to a cortam extent, restrict the list. no doubt. There are many firms who do not care to lay down plant or to spend time in manufacturing special patterns for which there is no use except for the War Office, and which may be changed at any
moment.
2305, (Mr. Bail. In fact, you have a certain number of firms who have laul themselves out for your work?--To a certain extent, yes. For ranges and that class of work should say we have probably about 50 on our list.
2306. (hairman.) There are two questions EXPOD that, and one is, as far as you are aware is there any
discontent on the part of firms in this country that they cannot get on your list? Has that ever been brought to youé notice: So, I have never heard of a case of that sort.
23. You think the method of inviting anglowis who is of stalling awi respectability to come on pre vents there being a feeling that there is a surt of ring have never heard of any feeling of that sort, and judging from the competition, and the great variation in prices, I should say that, with few ex ceptions, there were no rings.
208. The secul question I wished to ask you was in your juigment, des pour plan work well? Do you get work done in the best way by the system of the list open to all of stamling and respyétabilty who apply am inclined to think so. Of course, one of the first things we have to look to is to avoid ♬ possible loss resulting from the failure of a firm to carry out its covenant. That is a point upon which the Trea- sary are very strict with us indeed, and we get into It very hot water in cases where loss does result. nually comes up before the Public Accounts Com- mittee ultimately, and as long as you have that element I really do not see how, for ordinary supplies, you could go to open competition.
3. I think the Committee would like to know how much work, apart from the supply of stores, you do by inviting contracts, and how much you do direct. and what principle you go on; say you want to make some considh rabic engineering work? - Do you mean what is done in the Ordnance Factories?
2310, 1 mean more work like fortifications or bridges? That is all done by contract, all large jolis Practically with very small exeptions leth the erection of buildings and their maintenance is done by evntract."
الوت of that
2311. (Mr. Bailig.) You have no Works Department in fnet?There is a Works Department, but it is mainly engaged in supervising the work of contractors.
2312. You have no Works Department that is really operative? --We have no large staff of workinen engagel on constructional work.
2313. (Sir Aller! Spicer.) The figures you gave us just now in connection with stores do not include there works -Yes, they do include these works.
2314. They include these outside contracts)—Yes. they are the total amounts of the contracts,
2815, (Mr. Bailey.) The construction of barracks, and on?-Certainly but in ordinary years there is not a very vast amount spent in the construction of barracks.
2316, (Sir Francis Mowatt,) On the question of barracks, the inspection of the work from day to day would be in the hands of your Works Department Yes, it is in the hands of the Royal Engineers, who are the Works Department.
2317. (Chairman.) The Royal Engineers?-The pro gress of the contracts and the manner in which they fre performed are watched from day to day; they have a divisional officer in charge of the works and he has a staff of surveyors and foremen of works under him.
2318. The next point I had to ask you was about inspection. In how close touch are these officers of Do they report to the Royal Enginers with you? you? So the Director of Contracts lins nothing to with inspection or with watching the progress of the works at all. He is a purchasing officer entirely. and in all contracts the duty of inspecting and watch- ing the progress of the contract and seeing it properly earried out rests with the Inspecting Department.
2319, Mr Bailey) Take the case of that saillery, do your people inspiet it at all!--Not at all.
2320. You give the order for delivery at Woolwich ; you buy, and there your functions verse?- -Yes; but before Saying I am responsible for maintaining a proper list of effe tive firus; that is my business.
2321, (Chairman.) I quite understand with regarl to the works about which Sir Francis Mowatt askel you, but with regard to the stores. I will go back to the
MINUTES OF EVIDENCE.
Mr. H. DE LA BERE, C.B.
sadilles. Do you not inspect those at all before they are delivered!--I do not, but the Inspecting Officer at Woolwich does.
2322. In your Department you have no inspection? -No inspection. I have two inspectors, but they are concerned, one with labour questions and the other with the characters and general capacity of the con- tractors who are on the list. I have no inspection as regards deliveries or the execution of work.
2323, (Sir Francis Mowatt.) Take a contract which has not been, in the opinion of the Inspecting Depart ment. properly carried out for instance, if the sabilery is badly made, who would take proceedings against the contractor? You say the Inspecting Officer--LF the Inspecting Officer finds that by his own efforts he is unable to get satisfaction out of the ntractor he then reports the matter to me, and I take it up and write to the contracgor and obtain any explanation he may have to offer. If it appears to be satisfactory it is considered by the Military Director at Headquarters in concert with me, and we decide as whether the firm may be allowed to tender again or whether any penalties which there may be in the evntract are to be enforced against him.
2324. That is on the evidence of the Inspecting partment Yes.
2325. Solely by the evidence of the inspector? Yes, and only when he fails to obtain satisfaction himself.
2398. (Mr. Gabon,) Your position is just the same as that of the Admiralty. The Baying Department is parated from the Requisitioning Department qua the responsibility for inspeeton ! I am not quite certain. The Admiralty Contract Branch has some inspectors and the Admiralty Pattern Room is under sh) Director of Contracts, whereas I have nothing to
with the Pattern Ron.
2327. (Sir Wheel Spicy, When you have given an cler you do not so it through No. 1 hear no more about it unless it is reported to me that things go
wrong.
1998. You hand on to them the information as to what you have ordered and they see to it being Curries] mặt? Yes: imme liately the contract is con- ended a duplicate of the contract is sent to the "ber of the Inspecting or Reviving Department at Wlwich, ant the actual emitract itself goes to the Fitner Dpartment in order 19 enalde them to pay the bills as they come in.
2329. (Mr. Bailey.) You mean concluded in the sense of being made? Yes, when the tender is accep- tel. I should say.
23, (Sir Ralph Moor.) Then it is the Requisition- ing partment that does the inspecting? Entirely; they have the technical staff.
281. (Mr. Boil g.). And they would report to you if they had any reason to be dissatisfied with the charac ter of the firm or the way in which it had done its work 7. You.
2332. Even apart from the question as to whether they ultimately got satisfaction or not. I take it? In the cases they said in a Completion Report, in which if there is anything to call aftention to, they note it in their marks.
2934. You are fairly satisfied that no firm that was di'atory in the excention of its work or that had an undne number of rejections could remain on your list! Quite-certainly not: I think if anything the check is more effectual, as it remains entirely in the hands of the inspecting and not in the hands of the buying
Mr, than it would be af 1 had it myself.
234 I want to know whether it would be easy to *port any serious default '. Yes, if anything the ten- no woubi he rather to go to the extr soon that way. 2335. (Claimsw.) Will you tell us about the ship ping, how these stores are shipped: who arranges that Do you? The whole of the War Ofties shipping fright is managed by the Admiralty. When we have a sufficient amount to go to any particular Colony or any station abroad we ask the Admiralty to take up
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17 July 1908.
"we," meaning my own Depart- freight. I do not say ment, but Woolwich would ask the Admiralty to take up freight.
2:36. You do not have the selection of the firm to carry goals? No; not only does my Department not do it. but no War Office Department does that at all, and it is entirely done for us by the Admiralty.
2337, (Mr. Gibson.) There are a certain number of War Department vessels ?-They are mainly engagel in taking cargoes from Woolwich to Portsmouth and Devonport; they do the coastwise traffic from one War Office station to another.
2338. They are absolutely under the Quartermaster- General ?--Yes.
2339. (Chairman.) They are your own boats 7-Yes. it is the War Department fleet, but they are practi-
cally entinly limited to coastwise traffic between the various largo military ports.
23001. (Mr. Gibson.) Carrying explosives, and so on ?-Yes,
2311. (Chairman.) Your Department, then, alti- mately decides which firm is to get the contract?-~- Only in conjunction with the Military Department concerned; if there is any doubt about it. and if we do not agree it goes up for superior authority to the Council,
2312. But as a general rule, say there are 500 saddles wanted, that Woolwich has not got them and the order comes on to you, you invite tenders, do you not, from this list of yours?-We invite tenders, and as soon as they are received they are tabulated and scheduled in order of price beginning at the lowest, and they are then sent to the Department concerned. In regard to saddlery it would be Woolwich.
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2813. That is a Department within your Depart- ment-No, the Requisitioning Department, but as rule I make the recommendation for acceptance and ask if they concur. *
2311. I suppose they generally do?-Not necas. sarily very foquently it leads to some little discus sion, and scensionally to a difference of opinion which has to be settled by the Member of the Conneil con- cerned.
235. (Mr. Gilson.) In those cases, of course, a'i your officers are protieally under the same rales, and there is no delay?-Most of our tenders of that sort, in point of fact, do go actually down to Woolwich and to 1 Thy are all in the same 11 par muent,
2316. That proessure would not be so easy, say, in the Crown Agents, who get their demands from th distant Colomies; it would be hardly possible for them to refer back?--In all my answers I am only alluding to this own The perinond; I have a very innerfoet know- ledge of what the Crown Agents do. and I hope, in re gard to all I have said, it is understood that my mean- ing is entirely limited to my own Department.
MissT
2917. I should like just to put this point :, where we have distant commands like Hong-Kong or South Virica, nessarily the War Ollied all w latituds to the heil authorities, having regard to distance and tim・・ The only contracts which are executed locally in that way, or almost the endy canes are the works contracts,
2318. That is generally dealt with by the general Meers alround, living regard to distance and time. and they have a greater latitude and freedom then
athen-Y - the other
2319. Time world we admit of reference backwards and forwards? No, but except for works practically all the military requirements abroad are satisfied from Wdwich and Pimlico.
200 (NG PA† Spicer,) UF from time to time an deme is sent ut which is not to the liking of the
1.
matuds abroad where would tioseurupplaiiuts
Wlwich
2951. Not to you? No. I have nothing to do with
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