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17 July 1908.)

CROWN AGENTS' ENQUIRY COMMITTEE:

Mr. H. DE LA BERE, C.B.

2352. You simply have to carry out your orders; you do not specially ask whether this is suitable for South Africa or not?-That is a question of pattern for which the Military Department is responsible; 1 have no responsibility for pattern.

2353. (Mr. (rikson,) There is no variety of patterns; for instance, the same pattern of saddlery is applie able throughout the whole Army 7-Yes, but there are certain stores which are bought only for one Mam or a few commands.

rom-

2354. But most of the Army stores are standardised and of a general pattern --Yes, but any complaint of that sort is dealt with entirely by the Military De- department concerned. which is responsible for the pattern and is respousille for seeing that the goods. delivered are in accordance with the contract; for instance, if a commanding officer complains that his clothing does not fit his regiment, that is entirely a question for the Clothing Department at Pimlico to consuler.

9355 (Mr. Harris.) Sull the contrae comes through Woolwich The Clothing Inspection Department. When inspection has been carried out by them what- ever they have passed they must take the responsi bility for as regards the Army.

2350, (Sir Francis Moralt.) In other words, you obtain the contract for the Requisitioning Depart ment - Yes.

235 The Requisitioning Department deals with you, and if it is satisfied and thie General on the spot is tiot, the question is between the tien ral and the Requisitioning Department, and not between him and you! You

water-

1358, (St Albeat Spiter.) There are certain water- tight compartments, in fact, each dang their own work should not like to say they were right, because there 15 wry considerable reference be tween them: 1 think I may say we get in very close harmony.

2359. The different Departments of the War Oflice requisitioning, ordering, or examning!--Yes, we are not watertight, but the delimitation of responsibility is very clearly laid down.

2360, I have asked soane of the questions because South Africa 4 se information gathered in werently from the other side - I should be delighted 1 answer any questions I can.

2951. (Chairma».) In your judgment does the fact that you recruit your staff from the Civil Service, and hat they are all with the Civil Service, make it apote or less likely that the work will be honestly carried out in the presence of such temptations as may exist? I think it makes it more likely, because The Civil Servant has a very great stake in lus place; ne knows that if he loses it he will have very great l. "་ Affenity in thoing employment elsewhere, permanent employment, with a pension in view, and by the nature of his work he is very much shut off froom contact with people who might be likely to h¶p ht in the commercial world.

2362 (Mr Gabaona Isat not the vas that there are mears within the Civil Servier seals and appoint

atut alulity? sents of rewarding exceptional merit There are spend ineretnents whch can be given, aird promotion by betion; that is too meessarily cast

thank the means are iron_figality!

1

nink that means for penalising »xceptional des meritat Civil Service promotion so much depends super-tablishment that I think it is often dithealt

give geval no wanks.

293. Take, for instance, tip Treasury Minute of last year allowing special increments to be given for exceptional merit. Do not things of that sort tend really to reward exceptional merit Yes, they do, no doubt. I cannot say that I have had any actual case which I can recall in the War Office when exceptional merit has been rewarded in that way but I have no doubt there are some.

2364 #lanman.) How did you get into yeair post- then if exeqtional merit is not rewarded? What I

meant was that I could not recall any instance of the case Mr. Gibson had spoken of, giving a special in crement to a man as a reward for merit.

2365, (Sir Francis Mowatt.) I should like to carry that one step further. In the classification you have given us here there are four or five classes, and from each of these classes there is promotion to fill a When a vacancy occurs, vacancy in a class above. and the man from the class below has to be pro- uotes. is it not a fact that you select a man if his abilities and qualifications are considerably in nd- vance of his fellows, and promote him without strict attention to the rule of seniority ?—Undoubtedly,

26. That, I think, affords a very good reward for exceptional ability - In connection with that 1 may say that my staff is entirely interchangeable with the rest of the War Dilice, and that promotion in my De- partment does not at all necessarily go in the De partment, in fact, in most cases it would not.

22367. Then again, it opens up the possibility of promotion in another Department ?--Yes, as a general principle that is so.

2368. (Charis man.) On your recommendation ?—Yes- partly.

2369. If you think a man is an exceptionally good man, and you report accordingly, he has the position at once, without question?-My report would be con- sidered.

2870, 13). Gibson) Take the case of your Acting Assistant Principal. was not that special promotion owing to the particular qualiteations of "the indi vidual--That promotion took place while I was not in charge of the branch, and I am tint acquaintesl with the circumstances of it.

2371. The grade-of Chief Examiner was introduced to reward specially meritorious staff clerks ! --Cor tainly.

2372, Sir Albert Spicer.) Have you had any other experience apart from that particular branch of the Civil Service - No, I was only 27 when I joined the

War Oflice.

2373. And you have had no experience of the work ing of an outside office? I was in charge of the Pimlico Clothing Factory for some years, but most of my service has been in the Financial Department of the War Office.

2374. Mr. Bailey.) Contrasting the present system with what has been termed a mild autocracy, where you would have all the power of fixing salaries, in crements, and so on, how would you consuler that?- My remarks just now Were not contrasting two systems of that class; they were rather contrasting the orhnary Civil Service run of promotion with the hances which a man gets in the commercial world. Honestly do not think, as a rule, that the Civil Service man gets the chances he gets in the commercial work, but, as regards your particular joint, I do not think it makes very much difference whether any particular individual has it in his power or whether it is a power which is egereised by the head of a Department.

2375. Within the hits laid down by the regula tions? No.

2376. (Sir Wheat Spicer,) I take it you make that remark with regard to the better chances in business life from cases you have come across? Certainly,

2377. Just individual cases? -Yen.

237, Where they have got much larger jumps, so to speak, in salary, than they would have the chance of getting in the Civil Service

Yes.

2379, on the other hand, have you not come across a where men from the Civil Service have been dhiberately selected by large business firms and gaven very important positions - No, I cannot say that I have,

cow), (Mr, teiksson.). With regard to putting firms on the list, you make up the list, but do you not also wel- come suggestions from what you may call the Requi- sitioning Department when, from their particular

MINUTES OF EVIDENCE.

Mr. H. DE Ls Bint, C.B.

Would it knowledge, they ask to have firms put on. not be open to the directors adininistering votes to suggest the names of firms from whom they consider tenders should be invited, and, provided they are satis factory, you would accept such suggestions?—Not only

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17 July 1908.

do I accept suggestions, but at times I ask for them; if I see the list running low, or not what it ought to be, I ask them, from their knowledge of the traile, whether they can suggest anylely in addition to those I iny. self would suggest.

The witness withdrew.

Sir H. F. Wisox, K.C.M.G., railer and examined.

23×1. (Chairman.) Will you first of all tell the Com witter what special experience you have had of Colo- mal work which has frought you inter contact with the Crown Agents? My experience has been entirely in South Africa and in the Orange River Colony from The year 1981 till last year, when the change of Government took place,

2942. You were there during the whole period of The Crown Colony Government 24- Practically the

loke perand.

23-3. What was the position you then held?--I held th position of Colonial Serretary; at first I was Secretary to the Administration before the Constitu- thu of 1902 was published, and afterwards Colonial Secretary:

23-4. As Colonial Secretary were you brought int contact with the ordering of stores of various kinds from the Crown Agents" "Yes, the correspondence with the Crown Agents all went through my office,

ral

23-5. Without going into details. which we touch ups later, how did it strike you when yon found that work you repaired done or stores you re- quires to purchase would be obtained locally, but had to pass through an office of this kind? Did you think it a gel plan or a bad plau? I think distineily a gl plan; there is no soubt that w. were latter servol and fiat we got fetter materials, better good, that We should have done if we had just bought here, there, and everywhere.

2143. If you had no agents, you mean? That is wa 9957. Was the work promptly carried unt? - 1 should say, speaking generally, that the work was

We had very littl promptly and well carried out." delay with the Crown Agents cute, the delay scenrrel, when it did ovur, with the contractors they employed. There are two or three instances of that among bir papers which would show there were delays of that kind, but they were not, I think, dne in any. sys- to the Crown Vicans" olur, exer pt in so far as they might perhaps have hurried the contractors they www employing rather more than they did. I am thinking particularly of a certain delivery of bridges.

238. For the various rivers 1 happen to knA well? You for road bridges..

FR

2389, (Sir Walph Moor.) Was the provision in thes contract" satisfaci-ry to present such delay ? 1 pre- wing the Crown Agents would be responsilie for the Pontract ab~lutely

You

270, Was the evntract satisfactory in that respect Die terms of it yon menu? I am afrail saft not speak very finitely upon the technical terms of the Contract. The contracts would come rather before the Public Works Department, than myself; I was no rely The transmuting ngent for these requisitions.

2001. You could not say whether there was any penal clause as to slelay? Yes, there was a penál Plane, for I do not think it is always or by ang means fully exercised, and the Crown Agents hav given us avisans for hot exercising a fully.

229, (8) Fraure Morally 1 possuie- thus Choong elbed the attention of the Crossen Agents to the delay!

You

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283. Vud at the men ans piunt it would b that the Crown Agents du act theiently Prongly or sufficiently drastically on receiving your veroplanin That word be so, if there was a com- plaint at all on that see,

2394. (Sir Albert Spirer.) Were you acting for the Orange River Colony as well as the Transvaal ?--No. only for the Orange River Colony.

2395. You were stationed at Bloemfontein?—Yes.

2306. And you had to do merely with the requin- ments for the Orange River Colony ?-Yes, the various Government Departments who ordered through the Crown Agents.

2397. What would the amount of your requisitions come to in the various years?-It is a little dithcult to give a general estimate.

2006 £200,000 or £300,000?—No; our purchases wohl not have amounted to more than a tenth of that in any one year the average would be about £21,000 ouly.

23. What woubl run into the largest amounts? The Public Works Department's orders for bridge material and things of that sort.

24100. Engineering works?—Yes.

2401. Any railways?-1 must make a distinction there. because the railways were under the Inter- Colonial Council of the two Colonies, and consequently the ordering was done by a committer of dat Conneil.

212. From Pretoria > -From Johannesburg,

298, 186 Francis Mouaff,). The actual execution of lilding work the Colonas dealt with themselves! Yes.

2000, (8% Albert Spices) From when deck you Toe ie your requisitions !. The requisitions which | transmitted to the Crown Agents were received fran tig different Départnants concerned, some from th Education Department for esineational supplies for the schools and so forth, sottie from this Public Works Department, and soome from the Agricultural 15 part

They rateswatted" their requirement- through me.

tel.

2015. But your largest amounts would be the inginering wika" Vis

VP Realis fears. tim population is very spars, and therefore the requisitions in connection with th Ben: you have mentioned would be very

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Yes, they are not large. Of course, they were rather larger in the years fomediately following the war beanse there had to be so much terugstrue tion atel now buildings er.etes).

296. That is sa far as regards enginering 'works, lost I am dealing with other stores! I am thinking --f tion, ton; an the Education Department many schods had to be rebuilt from the ground, and con-

sequently there was a good deal of educational plant which had to be suppli «l, desks and other educational appliatas

2108. Would you get anything locally -- We used to get our educational looks locally by an arrangement.

2100, A: Bloemfontsin? Yes.

2110, (Foreman.) I suppose, strictly speaking, one could have bought looks there cheaply by getting them from here! I think that was so bint the matter was the subje of of discussion and correspondence, and it was agreed that we might buy them there.

24. It was considered advisable to encourage the local looksHep? Tu some extent. I think, but our Jeral purchas have not been at all large.

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