PUBLIC RECORD OFFICE
Reference :-
C.O.8
885
19 PUBLIC RECORD OFFICE, LONDON
ALLY WITHOUT PERMISSION OF THE BE REPRODUCED PHOTOGRAPHIC- COPYRIGHT PHOTOGRAPH-NOT TO
106
13 July 1:08]
CROWN AGENTS' ENQUIRY COMMITTEE:
Mr. W. H. MERCER, C.M.ti,
happens that we appointed him for the job." That secmis an anomaly. "How would you propose to remedy that? In practice the distinction would be a clear one. It is quite obviens that we have a continuous run of work in clothing and machinery, for instance,
2164. Electrical machinery ?-Machinery which is made for us and is inspectes at every stage.
2165. We had evidence to show that the distinction was really quite arbitrary? It is arbitrary in prių- ciple, but as a matter of fact I think it corresponds with an aerial division in practice.
210. Well the Colony know, and is it fair onl them that there should be this immense difference in sponsibility without any apparent reason just for the convenience of your office! After all, they are in the same position themselves. Supposing the local store- keeper at Colombo is buying local gids, as he often does, he frequently buys paper from India. and so forth, and veinent from Hong Kong, and he has to go If he as a rule to an outside inspector just as we do. thinks is competent to do it himself, lies it himself; but if a very technical matter outside his experience. he goes to an outside man as we do,
2167. (Sir Francis Muratt.) 1 submit to you that that outsid man becomes his agent for that particular transaction --For that particular purposes that may
be
2188, (Mr. Bailey.) Do you get a fer in cases whem you employ consulting engineers apart from the fee paid to the consulting engineers themselves? --Nut a Inny; we get nothing whatever in connection with the consulting engineers either with regard to the nivice which they give or the work which they do,
gigs, on that growl, therefore, if on mother, you claim that you get no consideration, and therefore that Yes, I think it is there should be no responsibility perfectly clear as regards the consulting engineer.
2170. As regards her experts wh-m gou employ. do you get a fix! The real fact is that we cannot l resiensible, because it is a thing we do not under- stand. stance, one thing is chemical analysis, ami notte of us pretend to be chemists in our office, Bu how can we moraily or practically be responsible? We go to a chemist of established refutation and get his opinion.
2171. (Chairman.) But are you engineers? For in- stance, you yourself know just as much of chemistry as of engineering ?--In practice there is a lot of differ ence; it is quite easy m the present state of technical iucation to get young men who are quite qualified to in-pect ma-hinery, and n the other hand there is an ine amount of this stuif - le done, and therefore the organising of the thing is quite simple; but there think they eur are many special cases. I do no often; they not- but they are numerous,
2172. Sunly it is the case that the special very soon becomes the general; electrical machinery ten years ago was one special case, and there was very little of it as it was a new subject? Yes.
2173. But now it has beme general, and so it will
b with many other things Yes.
2174. Why in this transition stage should the Colony suffer loss in one case and not in the other '—--- There are practical considerations. Take the case of electrical machinery; our consulting engineers aro Messrs. Presse and Cardew, and under the present system if there is a supply of electrical machinery or accessories they are the final inspectors; but lec- trical science and practice, as everybody knows, is changing every month, and the man who do not fole low it up strictly is absolete in 12 months. Therefore. it is very desirable from our point of view, not that we should bring a man in to do our work permanently. but that we should avail ourselves of whatever changes of importance there are in question to get the best inspectors.
2175. What is there to prevent you making your: selves responsible in both cases, assuming you are not? -There is nothing to prevent it. I do not think practically it would make much difference.
2176. It may be that legally you are. No, legally we are not liable in a single case.
2177. Of that I am not so sure. I do not think the Crown can sué itself.
2178, 1 do not know; I am not prepared to admit
Of cours that. Not without an Act of Parnami).
in some cases Acts of Parliament have been passed making a certain official sueable in a certain case, but it would require a Statute to do it.
2179. We are directing these questions to you, be cause I think every member of the Committee sees that it is an anomaly that the Colony should in one case, because it happens to be machinery, be in a strong position; and in the next case, because it hap pens to be chemistry, be in a weak position. We are asking you if you can suggest a way out of the dith- culty. Tu say that there is no anomaly seems almost to be a contradiction in terms? There is, 1 quite admit, an anomaly. All 1 suggest in extenuation of the offence is that in practice it amounts to very little
2180. (Mr. Gibson,) Practically you would not mind accepting the respotisilality in every case? No, per- sonally, if you think it an important point I should say we would be quite prepared to accept it.
2181. (Chuirman.) That is very interesting ?-For one thing it would be very difficul to get at the truth. For instance, quite lately with a view to getting uni- formity I have been going to a well-known chemist to get analyses and specifications for the purpose of stand. I think that is a matter of andising various articles.
the utmost importance. He has given me a specifica- tion, we will say, for a gertain class of oil, a cylinder oil. The specification may be an improper one, but it would be a battle letween experts to say whether it was or not; so that in practic, 1 think, our liability would not an 1 ch.
2162, (Mr. Harris.) Supposing it turned out a bad oil, and that they had a number of engines buist or Something of that sert in the Colony, what would you du. The Colony would say: W want some of this money back." What would you do? –We should go to some revognised chemical and railway authorities, and we should submit our spratication and say: "What is When we had collected these opinions your opinion?" we should be in a position either to fight or defend the I do not profess to be able to test the specifica- tion myself. We take no responsibility at all; we simply go to a god man, as we think, and take his opinion.
case.
2183. (Chairman.) Will you tell us about the organ isation of the office We know a good deal of it' niready from what Sir Ernest Blake and Major Cameron have been good enough to tell us. You say the office practically divided into two halves: the upper is on the establishment." the other "super- No distinction constitutionally, as all numerary." alike serve at will; and query whether the "super- numerary •" class is not unt of proportion, and shouti to the establishment." be reduced by "transfers" Very briefly, do you think that desirable? Yes, I think it is think it would satisfy the staff better if a large proportion of them were put on what we call the establishment.
What is
11. Why are they supernumerary now? the object of making such a large number super- numerary! The thing has grown up very gradually and without any preconcerted plan. The reason is that we cannot promise anyone fixity of tenure. Here - in the Civil Service you have no difficulty of that kind; in any case the salaries are paid, and if the work of one department fell off, the clerks could pro- We cannot do sumably transferred to another. that we are not in the Civil Service nud we cannot make any absolute promises to these young men.
2185. And you cannot transfer from your office into another N, except on sufforance so to speak. We have suceeded in getting a few appointments in the Colonial service for our young men.
2186 Bur, broadly speaking, you are a water tight compartment? You
21. And for that reason you must have a con siderable supernumerary class—Yes.
21. To arrange for the expansion and contraction of business?—Yes.
MINUTES OF EVIDENCE.
Mr. W. IT. MERCER, C.M.G.
2189. (Mr. Gibson.) I think Sir Ernest Blake is pro posing practically to put most of these supernumerary inen in the establishment?-Yes, but we have bevit very uncertain lately, as you are aware; the South African business has practically been taken away, and when that was decided upon we were quite uncertain am happy to what was going to happen. Thanks, say, to the energy of the Serretary of State, we are
ll in a prosperous condition.
2100, (Sir Francis Mowatt.) Is it not the fact that to eborks you get on a temporary pressure from the Cal Service Commission you can sulisequently return the Civil Service Commission when that pressure is ver? Yes; they have to be returned at a certain age, I believe, unless we take them on permanently.
2191. Therefore, that does not affect your super- rum rary class; the supernutnerary class disappears
(સા. પ્ર. pa large extent at a certain ag· ́
1992, (Chairman,). You say it is fund occasionally ti. the boy cupyists do not include anyone who is Carly suitable for higher work. and clerks are then siveted at cat prosení) a commencing salary of £70, They are solected on the strength of testimonials and the impression made at interviews. But it may bo suggestil that 4. stimonials are red equivalent to a finite edutentional test, and that impressions are ertical. They could be obtained from the Civil Service Commaissioners, especially if a rather higher <dure was offered, five men have been so obtained and have all done well. It is important to get goori Jan, as the Crown Agents, Jik» ather superior officials. te greatly dependent on the intelligence aul care of their subordinates; intelligence, you think, is desir- -ble in a subordinate !-- Yes. I think there can be no austion about that.
2198. There should be a general distribution of brain power throughout the office? Our men canot be 105 gool; of course, there is an immense amount of rom- tine, but even routine has to be done with intelli gence, offerwise one gets into trouble.
2191 (Mr. Kalles.) I wants to ask about these five men you obtained from the Civil Servieć Com- messier: what class of clerks were they?--The
tre from an examination which is called or used to Held the Supply Examination.
2195. (Mr. Gibton.) Have you taken on any men since that from other sources? If these men were satisfactory, are you ontinuing to get them under that system -No,
2196. Is there any reason why you should not have continued to get that class of men- Personally. I should prefer to get that class.
we
2197. When did you get these men, and why have you gone back from the method under which you got them?--When I was appointed Crown Agent thought the office required strengthening to a certain extent, and with the full concurrence of my colleagues it was arranged that I should fill up two vacancies by selecting them myself. I thought it was quite natural in my part to go to my oki frien·ls, the Civil Servica Commissioners; being a product of that service myself and not knowing of anything better. I went to them. They were very kind and gave me every assist. anre, and the result was that I got two young men who had competed for appointments commencing at £18) a year.
2158. (Chairman.) What do you mean by competed? They had competed in a recent examination.
2190. An ordinary Civil Service examination ?—Yes. and, of course, the men who were successful, say, the first twelve, had passed into the Civil Service. I sug- might have leave to interview two or three of the men next on the list, which the Civil Service Com- issioners kimlly agreed to allow me to do, that of the men 1 packed two, and I am very glad to say thes have both been exceedingly satisfactory. Subse
orly three other toen were appointed, all'at £100 a
yar.
200. On the same plan? Yes, and from the same examination in different years.
#201. (Mr. Luthra) Partly by competition aml partly by selection? 11 was practically the result of
21
107
13 July 1904,
the examination; we took the next man if he would
せい甘さい。
9202. You did not really exercise any very great selection!--Very slight; practically in such cases as that I think the examination is the best test.
2203. (Chairman.) Would you apply that to the whole staff on first appointment?-No, I do not think we could. Our office rests on the boy clerks who are at the bottom; they come in at the age of about 15. and they do merely clerical work. Now, if a boy is satis- factory, we consider it is only fair to keep him on. At a certain age, I think 18, or something of that kind, he must revert to the Civil Service Cominis- sioners, unless we take him on as a clerk. If he is giving satisfaction, it seems to be reasonable that We should retain him; at any rate, we do, and for a great deal of our work he is quite good enough; but I have felt from time to time that if we relied on- tirely on this source of supply we should not get in the long run men who are fit to be heads of depart ments in our office.
2204. Do you obtain all these boys from the Civil Service Commissioners?—Yes.
9205, AID−) should say so; I know of no caser to the contrary.
2206. If the system which you have started were adopted all through the office, the system would be very similar to that which obtains in an ordinary Government Office, would it not?-It would; that is to say, we would promote the by copyists when we thought they were good enough; but every now and then we should make an appointment of a boy or a young man of a superior intellectual class, and we Should have to pay him more. Personally I think it would have to be £100,
2207. May we take it that you think the best plan would be to recruit all your men through the Civil Service Commissioners, iecruiting a certain perren- tage from the higher grades?—Yes, it does come ta that; we should Tak» their boy copyists, in the first instance, and every now and then we should take them from such an examination as the Supply Exami- nation.
2268. What becomes of the appointment of sons of Governors of Colonies? It would disappear.
9209. And you are prepared to see it disappear? If the Secretary of State ever asked us to do such a thing, as occasionally he might very reasonably, we should be very pleased to do it.
2210. But you are in favour of abandoning this system of appointment by selection in favour of the system obtaining in the Civil Service?—Yes, I think it is on the whole preferable. I quite admit it is an arguable matter. Some people would think it is better to go by personal impression and on testimonials a by brings from his school, and so forth. I do not think they are so certain as the examination.
2911. It is only fair to ask you this question: Do you consider that the special commercial character of the Crown Agents' Office makes any difference in this matter-one whatever.
2212. (Mr. Leathrs.) I think you woubl differ from the Civil Service plan in this way, that you are tacitly asking for the power to appoint buy clerks in permanence without any further examination ?—Yes, 2213. That is a material difference between your scheme and that of the ordinary Civil Service?—Yes.
9211. (M.. falsum,). With regard to the commercial class of the work, you would probably admit that there is nothing specially commercial in your work, more than there is in the similar branches at the War Office and Admiralty ?- Not at all, and it can all be learned in the office; a boy coming in young I would pick it up there as well as anywhere else, would point out, if I may be excused, as regards the exammation of the boy copyists which is suggested I think, that this boy copgists in our offire da some times pass at examination, but the difficulty is that if they do they never stop with us. Naturally they go into the Civil Service; they get the same salary and perhaps better prospects; 1 am Hot sure about that, but they certainly get fixity of tenure.
· 02