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PUBLIC RECORD OFFICE

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C.O.885

19 PUBLIC RECORD OFFICE, LONDON

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1 July 1998.

CROWS AGENTS"

ENQUIRY COMMITTEE:

Mr. W. H. MY ROER, C.M.G.

15. (Chairman.) The same thing arises on the next jodat in your partis; you have put very briefly the pros and cons of how far it is desirable to make the allie ene of the Civil Services of the United Kingdom. On the pro' sale you say it would please the staff gem rally, while on the contrary von would say it is not in the materests of efficiency. At present Crown Agents and staff have to make the oflier pay, and they are eager to secure business; this can only be done by satisfying employers; this, on the whole, is den. The Colonial Governments do not hire any change on that ground?—Yes.

2216, (86) Francis Mowatt.) Nothing stated there would show that the efficiency would be injurennsly aftertel. You say: “It is that in the rests of eficiency

At present Crown Agents awi staff have to make the ollies pay, and they are easy to secure business.**

far as the Crown 1 imagine that. sử Agents go, they woull continue to be eager to secure business. Then your next point is:his can only Sakly the Crowi be due by satisfying employers Agons Woni sull be anxious Satisfy their employers. Then: "This on the win

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site any 1-

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bat it das not say 2: would madene under the new system. Then the paragraph e-we-les- -Th.. Colonial fiovernments

Tha: again that ground." chazig» ❤n

would 1. pre- that the efficiency

Lugarions y aftotel; so that Jaking your statemejits there as a whole I do not ser how it points to such an alteration not being in the interests of oliency - No. in prac 40 that may be so: persually it would met mak any difference to me with e f was will an outsi Crown Agent or an inside member of the alien; I ir uld go on working in precisely the same way, but all the question is one of præmeipis. At present the Crown Agents and their staff have a distinct indues ment to make their service satisfactory,

2217. What is the distinct inducement --Because we are dependent entirely upon our commissions, which we aru; and if the "Colonial Governments generally were dissatisfit 1 with us, there is not the lightest doubt that the work would fall off.

9218, (0%airman.) „Of esurse, they cannot leave you. ran they -No, but in one way or another a good deal of the business could be diverted from us if the Colonial Governments were anxious to do it.

2219. But actually there is no real abiding fear or dread on the part of anybody in the Crown Agents' Onlies, down to the boy copyists, that his salary will mase to be paid, is there --Not exactly a dread, but I think there is an uncomfortable foling amonget some of them. They have not got the same calm con- fl now that a ler at the fitil Servic has

2020, And you think they work harlor for that rebrím?—No, I was not thinking about that: I think T s far as to they are re careful, certainly

that am more anxious 19 ala th - thing well than if they were stabdishwil natalers ·f the Civil Service, 2921, (Sir Francis Moratt. You have experience of the Civil Service yourself I was 21 years in this hee. I do not like to speak about this offier under the accusing eye of a member or two members of it. ur I will say this, and I am sure Mr. Harris will gatto agrow with me, that in certain business aspects It used to We are quite different from this office, la common experience of mine when I was prin cipst clerk of a department here to have to wait - quite a week and sometimes a fortnight before I would get an important letter copied and signal; but in my own fire I should complain bitterly if anything approaching that took place.

9992. (Mr. Bailey, Why did you not complain here?-1 it, but it was no good.

2993. (Mr. Gihon.) This office has since been rê organised That may be. but in my department, if a letter is passed one day it goes off and is posted the same day. There is a difference; I am afraid there is no getting away fran it

2924. (Sir Francis Moratt.) I in your précis you state that now the Colonies are free to enticis, But do you think the Colonies would find their fres

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dom to friticise at all united by the fact that the prsti 1 elerks were Civil servants! This 13 have frequently discussed with Colonial ollicers, whether they would prefer any closer or, on the other hand, any more remote connection with the Colomat Oliwe, and I have always found that they do not like the idea of any closer contiCATION.

925. But they did not iminate to you that they would ease to eritteise your eleiks og your establish. ment if you become Civil servants, did flay? I think there would some natural dižienity; it mois; be re- memberesh, Sr, that every executive officer in a Crown Colony is looking to this office for a prospvet of promo- Foll If instead of criticising an outside department, he were to criticise the Colonial lice seif, I thank 11 15 terally certain, bikingg a. at from the point of view of general principle, that he would be less ready put forward his real opemons if a mistake had overed than he is under the prsnt system. He might think the crks in this he would be pas jus sheed against inm by the fat of repeated complaints.

9928. (8tr Halp! Morro Dis he not put his criti- easons of the Crown Agents in tot instances to the The Secretary of State' No, these are very rare. criticisms he makes to his own Glovernmebi afe egn- paratively frequent.

997. I am talking of the ertfacism which comes here, not of that passing to his Government bally, but of the crit.eisu which is went from the fàvernors over Jerez des ng that usually note to the Secretary of State now? it does, but, that is not the class of com- plaint I am thinking of; the kind of complaint I am thinking of is the complaint upon some rather onli nary matter of business which comes dirvet to the Crown Agms. If our flie were practically incor porated with this view, then all that class of com- plaints would scome to the Colani Office,

Ilever

2008, (Sir Francis Mona". From my own experi- etter, the fact of being an established departinem

Savest

the Treasury ang member of the Try from free criticism? Yes, but you were not dealing with a very large class of offie als who are alsolutely dependent on this Office for their pros pects in life that is our position: but I may add that these suggestions that I have made. I have put for. ward entirely in what I take to be the interests of this Committee. If the Secretary of State is disposed to make our office a Civil Service Office, and to receive me back into the lawn of the Civil Servic», person- ally I should be exceedingly plenseud.

999), (Chairman, I want to take you back. You give these as two reasons why you think it is not desir- able. On the other hand, one of the results would b that there would be a definite classification of salaries which at present does not exist in your offer?—Nex, but we honi have it.

1990. A present the salary attaches to the man and What is your view not to the flew that he holds. upon that should prefer to have a definite classi- fication running right through the office.

2231. Then, although you do not wish it to becoms a branch of the Civil Service, you would like that asport of it to be the same?- Certainly; although I do not argue to this Committee that we should be turned into a Civil Service Office. I accept the principle that w an a Giovernment Office, and I think we ought to I brought into line on these main points with the Government Office in this country, for the simple reason that I think they are good lines.

2232. Now you say it is not in the interests of the Secretary of State. He would have to defend himself where he is now a Judge of Appeal. At present he can at any time order a judicial inquiry or conduct one himself; and if he has any doubt as to allega. tions male against frown Agents he should order a public and open inquiry; it is the business of the Crown Agents to answer charges made against them. The Secretary of State might, however, conceivably be exposed to criticism in the matters himself, "for xample the Jamaica railway case and concession cases: do you think you are a useful boffer to shield The por Secretary of State? I think it comes to that in some enses, if you put if pretty plainly.

MINUTES OF EVIDENCE.

Mr. W. H. MERCER, C.M.G.

9234. We are very grateful to you; you think that constitutionally the change would be wrong, the Colo- ntal Governments are not a part of the Government of the United Kingdour and the Secretary of State should not act as their agent; that is your view--the consti tutional view?-Yes, it is a standing order in the #dice, for instance, that the Seer-tary of State is never to instruct the Crown Agents.

31. What does he do?- He approves or dis approves. I nay that as an vid member of this office. 2235, 41f course, it is a technical difference?—Abs lately.

2296. I wanted to ask you finally what is the status of the reserve fund zu your view? The reserve funci to about £3490,000, and on that to a aunts how gest extent the emoluments of the staff «le pend?— 1...

2537. To whom does that belong? legally it be bangs to the three Crown Agents, that is to say, it is maveste fan there names,

2938. And that of the Under-Secretary of State?— Yes, but it as beid on trust undoubtedly, as 1 say. * NOW OF 198 institution is that it is a Government dee, and theærciore ns, of course, in every ease, soties is has legally to hold the money, but there is a Fine nature of that trust has never is en set out

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Ja Ang document, and perhaps 111, rather regrettable 2wner has been; but still the nature of the trust con carly be gathered from the list ry and the practare of profanel it's. if. 11 has always beeni appaedi fathepur- pses of the Offic, never without the approval of the Seretary of Stat; therefore, I should say that the money is held in trust by these odlicíals, as friktees ter Se used for the purposes of this & Wive under the control or the Secretary of State for the Colonies.

22:39, (M). Leuthus.) There is no trust deed at al!? No trust diast, but still the trust can be established. of course, by the history of the facts.

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to mimit to the 9210. (3. Harris) You seem Chairman thm you do not object to the organisation of the Chew on the lines of a Civil Service Depart- Cont1-No, I do not object,

2211. Your colleagues have suggested that that would Weaken their power over their staff. Have you any views upon that yourself --Mere organisation would tot weaken our powers. Of course, you can have a perfectly organised department and still retain the right of dismissal or dealing with special cases. I certainly shakl be very sorry to part with that dis pussal power.

242. But you see nothing inconsistent with having that am still having a perfeet organisation on ordi- sary lines!--Certainly not.

2243. (M., Frilans,) If the Crown Agents were made calthough you think it would be undesirable) a part. of the Colonial thee there is no question, of course, that their salaries would have to be on the Estimates voted by Parliament, with an appropriation in aid as a contribution from the Celonies ?--Yes, ani all the Teipts would pass ultimately into the Treasury,

2241. And therefore they would be much more sub- jeet to Parliamentary control; the question of their salaries and their procedure could be brought up in Parliament on the vote for the Colonial Other! It can now, and is occasionally.

2215. In questions, but on the vote for the Colonial lice the salaries would have distinetly to be voted? Any Member of Parliament can raish any question he likes on the salary of the Secretary of State at present, 2291. (Chairman.) With regard tu the General Sites Department, you have put down here a very in- resting statement on which I think, perhaps, it is hardly worth while to examine you unkes there is e particular point you wish to bring to our notice. We have had from the other witnesses we have exam- ined the way you do this work, and on this particular point we have had no evidence which demands an I am rather anxious to pass on to the cases

of actual complaints.

109

[13 July 1908.

2247. As to the matter of complaints, I will tell you what I think would be must convenient--if you were to put in a paper showing the total number of complaints received in your department, the replies given, and the decisions arrived at in each case, that could be eirculated to the members of the Committee, and I think that would do it just as well as by means of questions and answers?--Very well. May I put one or two other details that occur to me in connection with these complaints!

2218. When you prepare the paper you will please do so? It is not solely a matter of complaints: we have had one or two handsome appreciations which it would gratify us very much to put forward,

2219. We shall be glad to hav» the testimonials you can bring forward.--We will not attempt to make an exhaustive list.

2250. La conelusion. I have only to ask you the ques- tions I have asked each witness who has cane. Assum- ing, as in the case of every human institution, that there are complaints, whether ill-founded or not, do you consider that aug of them show what change, quite brondly, should be tunde in the constitution of The five in order to resfuos complaints or hostility? I think. as a matter of fact, that the complaints are exceedingly few. One reason why I am anxious to read these ent is that they are so trivial.

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2261. That wouhl not atfeet the point; it is the changes whiela you suggest, if any, other than thos you have suggested in this evidence? No. I think what is wanted more than anything else is that w should ourselves try to com as closely into comract as possible with all the officials, and more than that the inembers of the publies of the Crown Colonies. stas a small thing to do, but in practice it is a great thing: it beans cheuraging a vast number of inter- views, which, of course, consume a great deal of time, and as a rule they are not very helpful from the lasi- ness point of view, but they encourage a clear under. standing and friendly relations. I never think my- self that an interview with anybody who comes from a Of course, it is rather a demand Colony is wasteel, upon one's time, atel sometimes at the end of the lay you feel that you have done nothing. I frequently have that nsstion about 5 o'clock. ht think it is all helpful, and I am sure we are animated (I am not speaking of myself only) with that kind of spirit.

9952. (Sir Francis Moraft.) Has it over varred to you that it might be il

desirable thing for one of your autüber to visit one or two of the larger Crown Colonies 2- You are mentioning what I should dearly like to do myself, but the answer is that I cannot get away. The same qustion occurs due re, but, as you know in practice, it is very ticult to arrange. I do not think we could do a more useful thing than by sending «me of oare senior men to Visit two or three Colonies at a time, to the West Indies in one group, and to the Eastern Colones in another

9253. (Mr. Gibon.) Would there be any possibility. of interchanging the staff? Did you ever employ any Colonial officials from the Public Works Department in your die lewense of their knowledge of the Cabintes They would not want to come to us. with our salaries. The higher officials in the Public Works Department, for instance, on the West Coast, would want estlerably more than we should give to our

11111.

2254. Salary is not everything; there is the advan- tage of climate and home service?—It is a very diffi- elt thing to make these temporary arrangements, 1 know theoretically it is a very desirable thing that there should be an interchange of servan, but it cuts aerOSS ag many –-gnsiderations. The men in this office have not are pussi appointments here with a view to a Calomni life; if they had had that in view at the evenneneera nf they cahi have got to India ; it is al! on examination. and the man who gets into the Colonial Oflice could a fortiori get into the Indian Cival Service,

99255, (Chairman.) You certainly would not want police protection because you are, a sort of good angel to the Colonial selulars?--Yes, Í have a special rela- tion to theria.