PUBLIC RECORD OFFICE
Reference :-
mmimnim C.O.885
19 PUBLIC RECORD OFFICE, LONDON
ALLY WITHOUT PERMISSION OF THE BE REPRODUCED PHOTOGRAPHIC- COPYRIGHT PHOTOGRAPH-NOT TO
100
13 July 19]
CROWN AGENTS' ENQUIRY COMMITTEE:
Mr. W. H. MERCER, UMAR.
If they are to be invited, as I think under certain cir- cumstances would be perfectly reasonable, it is for the Colonial Governor to do so; he might resent our doing
it.
2015. (Mr. Bailey.) Do 1 understand that, once the onder is sent to you, it is regarded as a sign that there is no one wally who, in the opinion of the Colomai Gi dernment, could carry it out? That is putting it exactly,
2004. Or take the supplies, if it is a question of stores? Yes.
are tot
2047. (Mr. Gibson.) May it not be the case that the Colonial Government, as Sir Albert Spicer points out, 1 possession really, as regards" prices, of similar information to that which you have at home 7 --Yes, and in that case, if they think they have a suitable man in the Colony, as I say, they ask ns for var prices and we send them. In some cases the lenl man gets it. and in that case we hear nothing more
about it.
2015. Is it not possible that there may be rases where it would be advisable to have jut tendering from Colonial and home firms for the same articles!-- Of course, the keystone to our position is that we are only doing the London work. I think it would be rather a mistake from the constitutional point of view, if I can revert to that, to confuse us at all with the Excentive Government in the Colonies.
240, (Sir Francis Mawatt.) I think you use the cxpressage that you were the London agents?—Yes.
2050) (34. Gibson.) The result of that is that the Colonial firm wust get the particular job or the home firm must get it; the two cannot come into competi- As I say, tron" No, I do not think it is really so. if the Colonial Governor thinks that it might be trascurable to give a contract to a local firm, he can give it right away if he likes, or he can adopt the course of sending to us and asking us What can and then, when you get this done for yourselvs?
he get the information, he puts the two things to gether and derides for himself.
251, (Sir Francis Mowatt.) How do you get the information exept by teuler?-We do get it prac tically by tender; we go to the people we know of and we submit the proposed contract with the pat- terns or samples, or any information we have, and we ask them for a price and they give it. We aseer- tain from them how long the price will hold good for. and we send the information out to the Colony.
2052, I suppose in point of fact there are only few Crown Colonies in which contractors capable of carrying out any substantial work exist? It de peis upon what you mean by work. There are two classes of work, the one being local engineering and building, things which are done on the Spot, and the other case is that of manufactures. As regards build- ings, the settled policy of the advanced Colonies is to Whether that is right do these things themselves.
or wrong I do not know, but it is outside our proviño
to say.
9053. (Sir Alert Spicer.) In connection with that, after all the Colomal Governments can only do certain work in their departments, and they have to give out the work outside" those departments, because naturally they try to keep their slepartments of such a size that they can continually keep them in work?--Y.
2051. And from time to time there are other pieces of work that they have to give out --That is so.
20655. And it is that part of the work where 1 a little bit come into collision with you.-I quite under- stand.
28. In th
case of these growing Colonias, you nly recognise the Colonial Governors, but 1 am asking my If whether that is the best way and whether vou could not be of great assistance to them by the
•xerrise of the elasticity which I understand you have tried to put into the office since you have en there, and prevent a good deal of this fooling by making the larger firms over there who are pro ducing feel that they are not in antagonism to you and that you are prepared to recognise them when they are able to supply and carry out the works of
A quite appreciate your pant, it i
the Colone
My difficulty is that when i look at may say so these things from the constitutional point of view, 11444 In business and I am bound to do so. 1 am privately, as I say, but all my powers come from the Cobal oe, and 1 must not excved my functions; The worst mistike (evuld make is to trench on the privileges of the Coinmal Governor.
257. Surely you might do it through the Colonial Governor; you might say, "Are there not a few names to be put on our ber that ar. hồng enough now itst *** In Ceylon, for instance?
2008. Say in Ceylon!--We know mothing whatever about trade in Ceylon; I frankly admit my ignorance on the subject. Tire may be good producers in various classes of goods. 1 may know their names as City names by cputation, but I have had no es perience whatever of their goals - absolutely no have never seen them and had no dealings with them.
I
2050, (Mr Gilson.) What chance have they then of being employed? The chance is undoubtedly a real claties if they satisfy the Colonial offerais that they can do the wink satisfactorily, but it is for the Col nial officials to decide whether they are to have the bistress or Bet--we cannot decide it.
on your
2000. (Sir Francis Muratt.) I think you have hardly met the questions put to you. You say it rests with the Colonial Government to decile in such cases ?--- Yes, 2061. But if they are capable of deciding in such cases they will be capable of advising you application that such anil such firms are, in their opinion, suitable to be put upon their list? As a mat- ter of fact the Colonia! Governm nts are checking us at every point, and if they think they can do better they have no need to come to us on a second occasion. Sup- posing, for instance, a requisition is sent to us for particular articles; in due course these articles are sent out with an invoice, shipping papers, and all the rest of it. They know in the course of time what they have gut and what they have paid for the goods. Now these same Colonial officials are in most cases experts in their particular line, and they check our qualities and our prices by local inquiries; and if they find out that some local manufacturer says he can do the thing equally well or better, they tell us-1 do not say they always do--but as a rule the Colonial official will write acknowledging the receipt of our supplies, and say that he has made inquiries and finds that the local price for the same quality is so and s
982. That is very interesting, but it is not an answer to my question. My question really was. What is the objection to your asking, say, the Governor of Ceylon, for information as to whether there exist in Ceylon firms of sufficient capacity, finan- cial and otherwise, to perform certain works, and if he tells you there are, what is the objection to putting them on your list? None whatever.
2013. (Mr. Harris.) Might 1 help you and the Com- mitte by asking-is it not the case that vently in British Guiana certain contracts for stationery and drugs have, as a matter of fact, been put in the hands of local firms by the action of the Colonial Govern- ment? That is su
2004. Giving notice to you accordingly? Yes, that is the case.
2065. (Chairman.) That does not quite meet the point, because in point of fact Sir Francis's question is: Would there be any objection to your inviting the Governor to tell you whether there are any firms in Ceylon that could be put on your list. and you say Home say I do not know of any objection, but we should not be in a position to deal with these firms. The Colonial Government would have to take the whole responsibility.
2018. Might I put it to you that there is a gra importance in Sir Francis's question, because, if it is the case, as it appears to be, that all these local lims, led, all "Ceylon, know that the Crown Agents' Office subsista entirety by commissions work done, and if they also know that no commission
obtained by you on supplies ordered locally, will they not think, unless you are quite superkumán, that you will use every endeavour to get the orders your-
MINUTES OF EVIDENCE.
Mr. W. H. MERCER, C.M.G.
selves, not for your own advantage but for the credit of your office? I do not see how we can endeavour to get the orders ourselves; if the Colonial Governor sees tit to onder the things locally we never hear of it.
2067. He asks you for your advice constantly, does hy not?—Yes.
2068. That advice, in the view of these people in Ceylon, would naturally be coloured by the desire to get orders yourselves? We do not advise generally; ur advice simply consists in the prices we send out. We usually make no comments.
2069. Surely letters pass between you and the Colu- mal Governors on the general question as to whether in your judgment as their business agents it would be advisable to run the risk of getting the thing locally with all the difficulties that that might entail?- 1 da not remember a single case of that kind.
2070. That is the sort of question, that an ordinary firm submits to its agent in this country, is it not?— Well, the difficulty in my opinion is that we have no means of testing the capacity of the local firms; as I say, we do not see their manufactures.
2071. What we are trying to get at is, what would you suggest other than Sir Francis Mowait's sugges tion, to which you say there is really no objection, in order to get out of this dilemma which each member of the Committee keeps on putting to you of the natural hostility created by local manufactures, and, although that manufacturing may not increase capulty, stall it must increase. What would you sug gest It all arises from the dependence of the staff on the commissions earned?---We hear a great deal about these manufactures, but as a matter of fact they rarely exist except no doubt in one or two of the larger Colonies. They call themselves local manufacturers, but they manufacture really in this country; their headquarters and their workshops and factories are
fwrc.
2072, (Sur Allert Spicer.) The questions I put were bol_111 Connection with those, but simply in connection with the larg, & Colonies where after a number of years from the growth of the Colony local works are built up and firms are built up of fair commercial stand- tex, and I want to see soine way whereby people wh ate paying taxes in the country, who are helping to ay the revenue of the country and employing a large ontent of labour, doing exactly what the Crown Vodenics want people to do, should feel they are being ncouraged, and not feel that you are a bar to their position?- quite see the point and I am quite sure a perfectly fair point and one that has occurred In time after time. My answer to it is that I fed quite sure that, wherever there are manufac Puers of that class, men who are really manufacturing in the place, every facility and every encourageinent will be given to them by the Colonial Government. It there is any case to the contrary I can only sug
that it should be produced and discussed, but I do not know of une. On the other hand, I do know many cases in which the Colonial officials have etually gone ont of their way to encourage local in- dustries.
2073. All your answers go to show that you are wanting to put the whole of this responsibility on the Colonial Governors ? -- Certainly.
2671. You are not prepared as their agents, so speak, to grow up with them, and as there are wolening facilities to give them the benefit and not be a burden! After all. I take it, the bulk of the Colonial Governors are not business men?-Not all; They do not want to take more responsibility than they can help.
2075. Whereas, if you could help them you would urely do a great deal to counteract this feling that rows up in the larger Colonies with regard to your totion** The feeling" may be reasonable, or it may I unreasonable. It is not a question of the Governor ally as a rule, but of Government «fficials, who Candy are business men and pretty keen Inkių SA viel if the local manufacturer can show that van peroluce a certain article of good quality at Cantonally the European prie, I say without hesita
s that he will get the order, and what more esubl asked?
101
13 July 1908.
2076. 1 am keping my questions to the case of those who actually make the goods, because I quite admit that if they do not produce the goods themselves great difliculty occurs; I am looking at these cases where, with the growth of the Colonies, firms are growing up who can undertake certain work, and I am trying to see whether some way of co-operation cannot be devised so that the Crown Agents shall get the credit to themselves of encouraging this sort of thing where it legitimately exists?-1 um afraid we should be usurping the functions of the Colonial Government itself. There is this to be borne in mind, a case which frequently occurs; a man says that he akuufactures something locally, whereas as a matter of fact he only manufactures there on a small scale I remember and gets the bulk from this country. there was a case from British Guiana some little time ago where it came to the knowledge of the Secretary of State that the Governor had given an order for certain items of stationery locally, and the Secretary of State inquired (not the Crown Agents, I should like to point out) on what grounds the Governor had given this order locally, and the Governor replied that he did it to encourage a local industry. "Now not one of these articles was made locally.
2077, (Chairman.) Do you still adhere to your answer to Sir Francis, that you see no objection to your asking the Governor for the names of competent local firms to be placed on your list here ?—Yes, but we should never consult them because we could not possibly do it.
2078. Wait a minute; you see no objection?—Not in principle; I am perfectly prepared in answer the question.
2079. On the constitutional point?--It would be for the Colonial Government to answer that question.
20180. You see no objection-Not at all to putting the question.
204, 1 suppose we must not continue 100 long 31 this, but in effect you say, broadly speaking, that your function is to eliminate the middleman - Cor. tainly. I should not put it exactly in that way. Our function is to get the lowest possible prices.
2002. That is another way of putting the same thing. In cases out of 100 it means eliminating the middleman; m the hundredth case it means using the middleman.
20×3. You eliminate 99 middlemen ?--- Yes.
2081. And when these Colonies become self-governing Colonies what takes place then? Out of the 100 middlemen how many are eliminated find how many employed ? We have had two instances lately. What is the effort? The effect. I think, depends entirely on the extent to which manufactures are turned out in the Colony, for instance, in the Australian Colonies, and, of course, Canada, the High Commissioners and Agents-General here, I imagine, buy very few things. but the Agents-General for the Cape and Natal buy extensively because manufacture is not advanced se much there
2085. What has been the change in your experience since, let us say, the Transvaal became self-governing? Is less honght here and more bought in those countries? --No, about the same.
2086. No that the middleman is still eliminated in those cases? As far as possible, yes.
20×97. Of course, they do not buy through you any more? Not the Transvaal.
2088. Nor the Orange River Colony 7 – Not now; wo are actually doing work for both in practice, but still constitutionally the business has passed over to the newly appointed Agents-General. We are only clear ing up old business,
208. We will now go on to the relations of the Crown Agents with the Secretary of State. 1 will read it because I do not think there is much in it that we have not had evidence on before. "Tho Crown Agents do not in strictness receive instructions from the Secretary of State, who is not an executive officer of the Colonies. But as in practice the Secre tary of State controls the administration in Crown Colonies by virtue of his power to appoint and dismiss officers, they tudy and carry out his wishes, and it