PUBLIC RECORD OFFICE
Reference :-
C.O.885
19 PUBLIC RECORD OFFICE, LONDON
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76
6 July 12,
CROWN AGENTS' ENQUIRY COMMITTEE:
Sir C. P. Lucas, K.C.M.G., ('.B.
salaries, £8,081 85. td.; coulie emigration, £25.148 10%. 41.; postal, £26,296 14s. id.; advances, £65,500; transfer and miscellaneous, £70,800 28. total, £223.514 178. 41. This table does not include the charges for brokerage on loan and investment Transactions, these being the same for all Colonies. The contribution of £100 was fixel on the understand- ing that the store work would be given to us, and is obviously extremely inadequate for the work above indicate if tha: is not the case."
1594. What is this £100 a year?-That is the fixed payment.
1595. Which British Guiana makes whether it orders the things or not?—Yes, I brought that up as I thought perhaps it might not have come before you; there are those cases of one or two Colonies where we have not complete financial control, and therefore what happens is that the stores are largely got through the local merchants, who. I think may fairly say, are members of the Legislature or have a greater or less influence on the Legislature. There is the result. If all the Colonies did that, the thing could not go on.
1596. What would happen ?-It would go bankrupt. 1597. Each Colony -The Crown Agents.
159. Possibly both, in your view-I do not know whether it is superfluous, but I just wanted, if you would allow me, to say one word on the great advantage there is of having a single agency for all the Colonies. It was put in this same despatch: "I hold that, bear- ing in mind the rates paid, the safeguards given, the accumulated experience which is at the service of each Government, the system is a clear gain to every single Colony which is served by it, and over and above this one main consideration, I consider that inasmuch as the Crown Colonies have in the nature of things in their varying necessities, conditions, and prejudices many obstacles to anything like community of feeling and concerted action, it is not unimportant on Imperial grounds that their business in this country should have a common centre just as the political and administrative questions which concern them ought to find a common meeting ground in the Colonial Office." I hold that very strongly myself; it is a very great indirect advantage to have a single agency, but I wanted specially to emphasise the great advantage to the smaller Colonies. I mean they get such a very great mass of experience and help from this system. I wanted also to bear my very warm testimony to the great use and very cordial efficiency of the Crown Agents in dealing with things like common funds. Sir Ralph Moor will very well know our Tropical Diseases Fund; all the Colonies, or a great many of the Colonies, contribute to it. The Crown Agents just deduct the sums when authorised by the Governments from their accounts, and then they put out the money for us and earn a little interest, and so forth. There is one fund which is not a Government fund at all, the Princess of Wales and Lady Dudley's Fund, for Illustrated Lectures in the Colonies, amounting to nearly £4.000. I have handed that to the Crown Agents and my friend. Mr. E. G. Antrobus, deals with it. I sign orders and so forth. You may have hal another impression, and I want to put the point that they are a most helpful body. They may very often do little things and possibly say little things that are irritating, but when a real thing is to be done they are a most helpful body of men, and I am very grateful to have this chance of speaking up for them.
1599. We quite understand your view as to the par ticular alvantages of the Crown Agents' system, and what you have just told us is very striking, but you say if a Colony becomes even partially self-governing and has an electoral element it is pretty certain to do as British Guiana has done, and the Crown Agents' business would come to an end. Is that your view?— Yes.
1600. Then does it follow from that that the whole wystem is incompatible with any system of self-govern- ment?-You will find that whenever a Colony becomes self-governing it wants to have its own agent naturally, and I gave the reason in the case of British Guiana, which is. I take it, that the Legislature represents the beral merchants largely.
1801. So, put broadly. it is your view that the Crown Agents is a paternal system acting for the good of
the Colony against that Colony's will?—No, I do not think that is fair.
1602. I do not wish to put into your mouth what you do not mean.-1 think you might put it in this way, that it is a paternal system for the good of the Colony, acting against the private interests of the English merchants in the Colony composing what might be called a commercial oligarchy.
1003, (Sir Francis Mowatt.) That commercial oligarchy being strongly represented on the local Government 7-Yes, I think that is fair.
1604. Therefore I am afraid 1 must put it to you that whatever explanation you may give of it a partially self-governing your opinion is that as Colony obtains its freedom it would, "if left to itself, go to some other agents than the Crown Agents?-- Yes, for the very good reason that so many people there would have a private interest in going elsewhere:
1605. (Sir Albert Spicer.). Do you think they would wish to have another agent here or to purchase more largely in the Colony itself? You see I am talking really of things I have only read, and so forth; should say they would purchase more largely from the local merchants who have agents in England, but have you noticed in the back correspondence that the going to other agents has not always been quite voluntary ? It is the Treasury, I think, who are very strong that the Crown Agents should not act for the Colonies after they have had self-government, if I remember right.
1606. (Mr. Gibson.) Arising out of that point, are you aware of the system in force in regard to any of the self-governing Colonies? Take Natal, or a l'ruvince of Australia. do you know what their prac tice is with regard to the extent to which they use their agent in London for purchases?—No, 1 do not; I imagine they use him just about the same as a Government uses the Crown Agents.
1607. Except that they have the privilege and right to order locally as much as they please 7-Yes, but you will remember the conditions of the Crown Colonies; they are tropical Colonies, and therefore the self- governing Colonies are probably more productive of articles that we get from England.
1608. Take the case of British Honduras. When you were talking about its being difficult to say whether American goods were biter than Briti-h goods, I take it the question of time and prive is of great importance to the Colony ?—Yes.
1009. And they ought to have a voice in such matters? --I think occasionally the Crown Agents and the Colo nial Office have been inclined to insist on a rather better article than was absolutely necessary. I think it is fair to say that. Taking, for instance, railway construction, we have always insisted on having the railways made by the vory best advice and holding that advice responsible. There is where sofne ele- ment of friction comes in. I take it that in some of these Colonies, and I am not prepared to quarrel with it, they have been prepared to run a cheap line first. Mr. Chairman. I suppose you have had before you this old Parliamentary return*—it is only as a matter of interest-f 14445.
1610, (Chairman.) Yes, that is very interesting, Does that showing how they were appointed at first. conclude what you wish to tell us, because there are several other points on which we wish to have your opinion, notably with regard to the staff --All that bing served was on the first question.
1611. There are altogether twelve questions? -I will be very short on the others,
1612. Is there anything else you particularly wish to tell us, because this is just what we want. If you have told us all you want to tell us we can - you certain questions we have jotted down as to the staff-I would just like to answer this questions very briefly, if I may
1813 The first was, can you tell the Committee what view is generally held as to the relation of the Crown Agents to the Secretary of State - There is only on view-they are absolutely and entirely subordinate. That is subject to what I have been
• 11. of 4. No, 623'1845,
MINUTES OF EVIDENCE.
Sir C. P. Lucas, K.C.M.G., C.B.
aying about the Crown Colony Government and the Secretary of State. Mr. Harris pointed out to me the following minute on that point by Mr. Ebden, whom Sir Framis Mowatt will remember as our ef clerk and a very able man: "They are appointed by the Secretary of State primarily as agents for Crown Culonies which are required to employ them. The manner of their remuneration is laid down by the Secretary of State, and their salaries are fixed by the Secretary of State"-(this is in 1881-they are allowed a certain latitude with regard to their staff, bat the number of their staff is regulated by the S.cretary of State, as well as the aggregate_amount which may be spent upon it and upon office con- Lingencies; the surplus is required to be paid to an This and their office lice fund for peristons, ete receipts are as much under the control of the Secre tory of State as the business and the revenue of any Crown Colony, if not more so."
1611. That is your view too!-I do not think any other view can seriously be held.
Are you
1615. That answers the next question. aware of any ground for the opinion which has been ndicated that the Crown Agents enjoy almost abso- hate independence of control? Does that answer that question also I should say: No valid ground what ever; but on the other hand, first, in practice, in matters of detail they may have been largely inde
always pendent, and they must be; secondly,
bhas a little bit personally opposed to their moving from this office; I hought that to move even into ä separate office, although I do not think it comes to anything, was a little bit in the direction of greater independence; thirdly, I put this down for what it is worth, possibly in past times the Crown Agents may have inherited some little of the traditions of the old Colonial agents, who, of course, were very indepen- dent gentlemen.
1610. Question 4 follows from that-can you say whether in your opinion it is necessary for the suc eful working of the Crown Agents business that they should enjoy a peculiar measure of independence, r at any rate that they should have special and bsolut wontrol over their officers? Do you mind
ling 5 with it too?
1617. This is 5; “Do you see any objection to the posal that the staff of the Crown Agents should brought more into line with the staff of a large department in a Crown Colony? The constitution of that staff of a large departmem in a Crown Colony is is a rule subject to the final approval of the Serre- Lary of State," Dos your experience suggest any objection to a similar arrangement being made with gard to the Crown Agents' Office ?-1 was talking to Mr. Harris, and I think with deference the fifth question is a little bit misleading, because all initial appointments in the Crown Colonies under £100 a year are in the absolute gift of the governor, and their men practically go on from £100 to £200, £300, or £400, so that I do not think that the ques- tion is quite safe. The salaries in the Crown Agents' I Oflice for clerks only begin, I believe, at £75. think the Crown Agents should have power of appointment and dismissal, but that all of appointment should be reported, not approval, to the Secretary of State. I would make the Secretary of State_cognizant of all that is done, re so than now, but I would not make him approve, rst because it would diminish the control of the Crown Agents over their staff, and, secondly, because 24 would throw responsibility upon this office without adequate knowledge of the details. That is to say, I would not approve of their appointments and their dismissals, but I would have full reports of them sent ---x-.
cases
for
1618, How, if at all, would you alter the existing system-I do not think we hear all that goes on; I do not think we have reports of all the promotions and all the appointments (I am sure we have not), and of a the distnissals. I would have reports: I would have them sent in so that all that has been done could he queries, but I would not take the responsibility of the details of that office.
1619. Have you any knowledge as to the scale of salaries paid in the office, or any suggestions to make?
17
(6 July 1905.
跆
- think the scale should be approved by the Secre
I think that there should be fixed tary of State, increments approved by the Secretary of State, and I think that the rate of pay should be attached to the class or to the post, and should not be personal.
1620. Then in this case you would make an altera. tion in the existing practice ?--Yes.
1621. That the post should carry the salary and not the person 7-Yes.' I do not think that the present is a good system. I think the Crown Agents' staff should know exactly where they stand and what they are going to have. There should be regular classes and regular increments of pay attached to the classes. 1622. (Mr. Gibson.) Generally on the Civil Service lines 7-Yes.
1629, (Chairman.) We are coming to the appoint- ment of officers for the Crown Agents' establishment, but perhaps it would be better to have it now, as it arises upon that. What is your view as to how the staff had best be selected, both the inside staff and the outside staff for clerks and the other officers, especially the clerks ?—I would only refer to the inside staff; am afraid I have not thought of the others. I think there should be in all cases a qualifying examination.
1621. (Str Francis Mowatt.) As distinguished from competitive-Yery,
1025, (Mr. Gibson.) Held by the Crown Agents themselves 7-1 did not really go into that; I should think probably it would be held by the Civil Service Commissioners, and I consider that whether promo- tion is made from boy copyists or appointment is made from outside there should be for the main body of appointments a test, and the same test. I would not insist on the Civil Service system and would give power of probation. I am on what I started with, that this office, as I said, is a compromise; I have no strong feeling about this matter, but I think if you have a simple Civil Service examination you make it less of a commercial office and more of a Government office, and I am rather apprehensive of that.
entrant
1626. (Sir Francis Moralt.) Why should the com- mercial capacity of an
be injuriously affected by the test of a competitive examination ?— Why do not the merchants in the City have competi- tive examinations for all their staff?
1627. (Mr. Bailey.) Some of them do, as do some of the banks?—I would have whatever they do.
1628. (Sir Francis Mowatt.) I suggest that we should do whatever is best for the concern, and not what the private merchants do?-That is what I am at. I keep asking myself why, if this is obviously the beat thing for a semi-commercial office, is it not universally adopted by commercial men?
1629. My answer to that, if I were under examina- tion, would be that no private commercial firm does work of the same sort as the Crown Agents dol- That is a matter of opinion, I suppose. May I make it quite clear? I have no feeling on the subject. and I should like, for the sake of the office (and, of course, they would like it) to have a sort of Civil Service tenure. I am simply going back to what I started with that it is half a Government office and half a commercial office, and I would be very slow to suggest that you should convert it entirely into a Government office.
1630. Should you say that the Crown Agents do anything not done by the Contracting Depart ments of the Government- say, the War Office, the Admiralty, and the India Office?-The Contracting Departments do not do loans, do they?
1631. I should have said the Contracting and Com- mercial Departments. The India Office do, in fact, negotiate loans. --I do not know what they do.
132. Finally, you have expressed the view that it would be important that the Crown Agents should proceed upon commercial lines, but why do you think that the commercial lines of the Crown Agents would be deflected by a more complete control of the Stere tary of State; or, I will not say control, but, if you like, the interference, the interposition of the Secre tary of State in their business?-I do not want to throw the responsibility for all the details of this
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