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6 July 16.7

CROWN AGENTS' ENQUIRY COMMITTEE:

Sir C. P. Læcas, K.C.M.G., C.B.

everything that is sent out is or ought to be tested. If they do not do that, then change your Crown Agents, but have agents.

1560), (Sir Francis Mowatt.) I do not want to carry it further than this. Let us suppose that 23 or 5 per cent. of the total orders were, in the opinion of the Governors of the Colonies, best found in the Colonies themselves, would you suggest that the Crown Agents have the discretion of accepting such a recommenda tion!--Again, I am back at that difficult point.

1501. I will not press it.-1 would like to answer you if I could. Take cement, you want cement for some harlar works.

1562. We had an instaure of cement given where cement was immediately needed. There was an ample supply in the Colony and the question in the mind of the Governor was whether that might not be used in preference to waiting for cement to be supplied from this country --Where did the cement come from?

1583, 1 do not know where, it came from; he then- tioned that there happened iu be some available on the spot.

Bisik, (Chairman.) It was being used by the muni cipality.

All (news) My answer is that the Government ought to have estimated what amount of cement they wanted in the year and to have given their agents the order to send it out. If the agent was a good one they would have the best terms they could in that way. If there was some accident or some sudden rush and they wante! it immediately, it is a matter of com mense that they should go across the street and buy it if it is there, but I think that either a Colony should not have an agent and should simply buy through local firms or, if it has an agent, it should use the agent to get as a general rule all stores re- quired from Englaud.

1565. (Nix Francis Mowatt.) With the introduction of the words "as a general rule," I am quite con- tent. There must be exceptions; there might be an outbreak of cholera and you might want a sperial drug at a moment's nôtice, and it would be ridiculous tos nd a requisition home which would take weeks amì months perhaps to comply with.

1566, (kairaman,) We had evidence from one wit- mes that the system acted very frequently as a sort of British preference—that certain Colonies wouldi, or thought they woubi, find it advantageous to bny American or other goods, but owing to the fact that they were tuore or less tied to the Crown Agents, they sent home an order for British; what experience have you of that That is a very difficult point; I put it down here on my notes. I think you must judge the Colonies by their geographical position; for instance, take the case of Jamaica, it has great lati. tude to buy from America. There is this other point, that you have got in the Crown Agents, as I have ven- tured to say already, this fact, that everything that they do is tested rigorously, or ought to be. I believe it is carefully inspected and sent out, and you do not get that with private agents. If the goods could be god equally well in England and America I think the preference should be given to England. Would you allow me. Sir, just to state two or three points?

1567. Yes, and we will interrupt you when we come to something we think you will help us in.- I tried to give one reason for prejudice against the Crown Agents-commercial jealousy. Now the second point which I have mentioned already is that they have not been exactly agents for the reason I gave that they have been under the Secretary of State partly and not wholly, under the Colonial Governments. This is very well put by Sir Frank Swettenham, when he was Governor of Singapore; I think you have had it bfore you as felt that the Crown Agents occupy a position which is not exactly that of the agents of The Colonies, but rather of an' independent authority prepared to execute the onlers of the Colonial Govern-

nt with considerable limitations."

Will car hjeet after this correspondence came was to try and mish that and to put them as far as we possibly euld more directly under the Cubania! Governments.

1508, (Sir Francis Mowatt.) Was that as a result of the suggestion of the Colonial Governor, Sir Frank Swettenham 7-It was the result of going through the correspondence, but I was going back to my point that there inust be a certain amount of dual authority, and the more you can reduce it and the more they can be under the Colonial Governments, I think the better.

1560. (Chairman.) Will you please proceed?-He' winds up: If you think the Crown Agents must con tinue to be the only channel of purchase, I would anggest that they should really act as agents of the distant Government and not as a Governtu nt Depart- ment with powers and rights of criticism and the right to deade as to how an order is to be excented and Ü Colony's money expended." Following upon that I should say in the past (I am talking of friends and of men I have great admiration for and whose work I think has been admirable, and I do not think it is so much the case now) the Crown Agents have been rather disinclined to allow that they could make mis- takes. That is the friendly criticism I should make; I make it in the friendliest manner and, as 1 say, of men who I think have done estimable work. Then I should say again in the past, much more than in the present, they have been rather like British manufac turers. as the Colonists say of them, that is to say, they think that they know better than their clients, and they do know better, but the clients do not love them any the more for that, and I think those are two human reasons which will probably always apply to some extent. They necessarily must have here in the City of London knowledge of what is the best article, and then when an order cones home for a particular article they have to choose between sending out what they know to be better or simply complying with the order because it is the order, and, therefore, there is always, people being human, the element of friction. Then I think we came to the conclusion from this correspondence that at the time the chief ground of complaint, as far as there were grounds of complaint, was that there were delays, and we came to the con- clusion that those delays were largely due to what I have been speaking of-careful inspection, getting the goods well looked into. Now I come to two special Cases of difficulty-ue the Chairman has touched upon already--that is to say, the Colonies being near other markets. I do not think you will ever get over that difficulty. When a place like Jamaica deals chiefly with the United States they must have liberty to deal, and it is ridiculous to forbid them; but as they have agents in England there will always be an element of friction, because you can never determins whether an article is better got from America or from England.

1570-1. Upon that I want to ask you a question. Personally I have never been quite clear about it. although we have had a good deal of evidence about 11. How far are the Colonies entitled in practice to get all their stuff from other sources than through the Crown Agents? We know that there are certain limita- tions laid down in various documents saying that a Colony may get its stores in a hurry elsewhere, in a case you mentioned, like cholera, for instance? How far would the Secretary of State interfere? How far would the Crown Agents protest? Supposing Jamaica derided to deal exclusively with America for all stores. what would happen, taking an extreme case to illus trate the principle-I want you to take another case, nut Jamaica, and I will give you the reason for it; it is true that Jamaica is at the present moment in the position of a Crown Colony, but it is normally more or less in the category of the semi-Crown Golonies to which I wished to call attention. I think my answer -is. that the Secretary of State would not allow it. that is to say, he woubl not allow that any particular Colony should

dent exclusively with the United States, but if you tak British Honduras, where obviously the ordinary market is the United States, he would let it deal. as a rulo, with the United States, but I think then. always must be some things for every Colony that it must have from England. In the first place, it must have its financial business in England.

1572. What I want to know is, who intervenes and at what point actually? You say the Secretary of State would not allow that extremo case?-No.

MINUTES OF EVIDENCE.

Sir. P. Luean, K.C.M.G.. C.B.

1578. Who intervenes, and at what point does he intervene when the Colony goes too far?-1 should thank 11 would probably arise in this way; either the Crown Agents would hid that no orders were coming at all and would report it here, or they would uni that an order had been sent to the United States, and that the United States had sent on the order to England to some firm that was on the Ciòwn Agents'

That is how it would come up. 1574. Then the Crown Agents would protest ?--It would be their duty, I think, to report it.

1575. (Mr. Gibson.) The Colony would be breaking the rules laid down by the Secretary of State?—Yes.

1576. (Charisman.) There is no fixed rule quite; is that I think the only fixed rule is that in all dealings with England and Europe the dealings must be through the agents of the Colony in London. That

how I would put it.

1577. Of course, that immediately prevents the Crown Agents' Office from being, to use your phrase, under the Colonial Governments, does it not / They cannot in any sense be under if they have such com- piote and absolute control over the matter as that?--- I do not quite agree with that. The Crown Agents ere under the Colonial Governments in that they are To carry out the orders of the Clonal Governments. for all orders that are sent home. That is their rule; they are agents for them; they are so far not under the Colonial Governments in that if they find that a Colonial Government is not acting on the rule that has been lani down, here we are over the way, and they report the matter and ought to repet the matter. 1578, (Sir Francis Moraft.) Le: no suggest a concrete illustration which would explain the point. It is a question of low the dealing with an outside firm comes to the knowledge of the Crown Agents or the Colonial Office; is there a railway in British H. nduras?-Yes.

1579. Suppose the Colony bought two locomotives in the States and paid for them and put them on a line. how wombi that transpire: Is there any sheet_r.gu- lation by which it would transpire or would it gradually and by chance come to the knowledge of the Colonial Oflice--We ought to hear that from the Giovernor; the finvernor is the Secretary of State's man, and we have the accounts of the expenditure. In a small Colony like that, if you spend £3,000 or 1,099, it must come out here directly.

(Mr. Gibson.) I think if 1 may say so it would be almost the function of our al auditor who is governed by the Colonial Office regulations to draw attention to the fact and to report to the Comptroller al Auditor General, who would certainly report it t th Colonial Office, that such a gross departure from regulations was taking place.

1580, (Chairman.) Does it in point of fact amount this that the Colonial Government must order the locomotives through the Crown Agents?-I could not say that, if they were buying them from America ertainly not. at 1 think the Governor ought to res

if thinks he ought to get them from Ameries imd get authority for that. That is what I think.

1581. (M. Harris,) Following up the question of the Chairman as to the Crown Agents being under theotomies, might we not say that constitutionally a Crown Colony Government does not exist without the Secretary of State, who is really the final pinnacle of a Crown Colony Government ?-Certainly.

1582. And, therefore, the Crown Agents are under im mean that when you explained to the Com mittee how you wanted to put the Crown Agents mon and more under the Colonial Governments, you would probably consider that on any difference between them the Secretary of State, being the head of the Crown Colony Government, as it were, can always step in and say to the Crown Agents: "I must decide, you are under me"?—Yes.

1383. (Sir Ralph Moor.) Is it not the dual position and the dual control which principally has led to the criticisms on the Crown Agente 7-I tried to make that print.

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1581. And the final decision as regards the carry. ing out of an operation on the Crown Colony esti mates is really vested in the Secretary of State?—Yes.

1555. He practically approves of the works that may be undertaken and the expenditure that may be in curred on them; is not that the case?-That is so.

1686. Having approved of the works and the ex- penditure, your view is that he should then say to the Crown Colony and the Crown Agents: "Now it is between you, the Crown Colony must order their goals and you must execute their orders; I will have nothing mure to do with it." That is the position you think is the more desirable one?—Yes.

1587. And yet that is the position which really. causes all the criticistn-In theory the Secretary of State and the Crown Colonies are one; they cannot be one, because one, is in England and the other is in the Colony. The Secretary of State, as Sir Ralph Moor says, approves all the expenditure of the Crown Colony and the Crown Colony Government sends its orders. On any order Sir Ralph Moor knows a ques- tion may arise; by the time it reaches here there may- be some alteration, some new invention or so forth, and at any moment it is a question whether they should telegraph for instructions or write for instruc- tions, or whether it is so obvious a fact that the Secre- tary of State's authority only would be necessary,

1588. That is a particular case, but I want to get at your view as to the question of principle, whether it is more advisable that the Crown Colony should be responsible for getting the best value for its money by itself dealing with the Crown Agents, or whether the Secretary of State should carry his authority further and say: "I also, will hold myself responsible for weeing that you do get value for your money, you shall employ the people appointed by me as your agents, and I will be the final appeal as to the question of your getting value for your money"! -Nỗ, 1 think the first.

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150. You would then throw the onus on the Crown! Colony to get value for the Motley they are authorised to expend, but they must get it through you at this end-Through their agents in England- do not call it through me at this end-and I would hold you responsible as the Colonial Governor for having it.

1500. For seeing that there was no waste-Yes, I think you will find that to be so.

1501. (Sir Francis Muwatt.) May I suggest an instance we have had brought before us for your con sideration I do not say how far it was exaggerated or accurate. We were told that in a certain Colony the Crown Agents undertook the construction of a railway; they sent out their own man to construct it and the whole thing broke down. A series of appeals from the Colony was addressed to the Colonial Secre- tary to relieve them of this gentleman and to allow them to appoint their own man. At last the thing became a bad that the Crown Agents' engineer took himself off and went home, and then the Colony took the job in hand and completed it without any difficulty and in a satisfactory manner. The question I want to ask upon that is: Assuming it to be a correct state- ment, would you not hold that the Secretary of State in this country must be the Court of Appeal to which, in such a case, the Colonial Governor should

appeal Yes. You are referring to the case in Singapore?

1592. I am not concerned with whether it is an necurate statement or not, but, assuming the possibility of such a thing, I do not understand you to say that the case should be left so absolutely to the Crown Agents that the Colony might not have an appeal to the Secretary of State?-Clearly not. I now want to take one of these cases of a semi self-governing Colony -British Guiana.

1503, (Chairman) Has that got a majority of elected members-Yes, in the Financial House. Here is a letter dated January, 1907. signed by Mr. Mercer: In reply to your question as to the amount of our remuneration for the work done by us, we subjoin a table giving the cash entries of 1905 incident to the work for which no payment is made other than the fixed contribution of £100 a year: Passages, £466128.; scholarships. £672 108.; pensions, £27,830 10%. 24.;

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