PUBLIC RECORD OFFICE
Reference :-
C.O.885
19 PUBLIC RECORD OFFICE, LONDON
ALLY WITHOUT PERMISSION OF THE BE REPRODUCED PHOTOGRAPHIC-
COPYRIGHT PHOTOGRAPH-NOT TO
61
29 June 1908.]
CROWN_AGENTS' ENQUIRY COMMITTEE:
Sir E. Baxı, K,C.M.G.
which, for instance, if I felt very strongly on a sub- ject am glad to say I have ever felt sufliciently If, for strongly) should overrule my juniors. instance, 1 felt very strongly that I was right and they were wrong, I should overrule them.
1108. Then in your judgment it is not a Board?— No, I think-and I can speak with a good deal of freedom, because I shall not be here much longer-- that it might be very desirable that it should be laid down that the senior Crown Agent should be given definitely the power of overruling his juniors. I might tell you a thing that happened. When Mr. Chamber- lain went out to South Africa there was a dead set mado upon us about our work, and he was so con- vinevd that everything was wrong with the offio that he sent some very nasty telegramas home, and finally said he would go into the matter when he came home. He brought home a mass of papers and sent them over We made hay of those papers, tore everything to pieces, and Mr. Chamberlain sent for the three of as and said: "I am perfectly satisfied, you have con- vinced me that you were right and that they were all wrong," and then he turned to me and said—a very remarkable thing-"I rely upon you to keep me out of any scandals." That was at the time of the War Office scandals, and we did keep him out of scandals. 1109. That was arising out of this question 7--- Turn- ing to me he said, 1 rely upon you to keep me out of any scandals, and I shall write to Land Milner and 11 him that these sort of attacks upon you must
to us.
CIRIN.
1110, Whay did you gather from that special manner of addressing you?—That he practically re ginded the senior Crown Agent as the responsible
men
1111. The master!--The master.
1112. And the two others junior to him?—Yes. 1113. And from time to time if anything happens. the Sendary of State dues send for the sentor Crown Agent? Yes.
THE, (Six Faucis Moenfl.) May I ask a single question illustrating that? You have said that if a junior Crown Agent" had to deal with any important matter it would be his duty to consult his senior? - If it departs from the broad principles on which the office is run.
1115. Equally would you consider it the duty of the tor, dealing with a matter as to which he had delu. ft which was now in principle, to consult his colleagues' -I think he ought to ehnsult his col Hagues. Of course. I am bound to say that in matters of finance as a rul. I do unt consult my col- leagues, because I know so very much more than they de, but it is all carried out on the broad general principles.ng which the work is always done, and my letters they see afterwards,
1116, 18% Art Spicer, How do you divide up your work-That was one of the points 1 was to deal with. The senior Crown Agent takes questions connect with the organisation of the office and the discipline of the office. He deals with all questions of finance, and with questions of policy connected with the African railways, and also the railway which we are now building in China to connect Hong Kong with Canton.
1117. (Chairman.) African and Chinese railways? Yes.
1118. (Sir Francis Mowatt.) Would you also deal with railways in any part of the Colonies That my colleague. Major Cameron, does. If any question of principle arises in the Shipping Department I expect that to be brought to me, and similarly if any question of principle arises in the Stock and Coupon Depart ment I expect that to h- hrought to me.
1119, (baisman ) Put briefly, do you expect any question of principle in any department to be brought to you--I expect my colleagues to bring it to me, but I do not interfere with their work; it is for them to bring it to my knowledge. Then the second Crown Agent has practically the control of the Warka Depart nin which is a very big Department, and he deals with all the other railways.
1120. Railways other than African and Chinese -- Yes. He deals with harbour works, drainage works,
water works, and other works that are being constructed in the Colonies under a consulting engi neer, and which there is a great deal of correspondence about. His work is mainly devoted to those engineer. ing questions. Then the third Crown Agent, Mr. Mercer, deals with the General Stores Department. He also has the general control of the Pay Office and of the Miscellaneous Department, which deals with agreements and things of that kind. He also deals with stamps, and in his work he is very much assisted There is another point I ought to by the secretary. have mentioned. Until the Colonial Office established the system of Committees to deal with concessions, practically almost the whole of the concession work was dealt with by me, and I have asked Mr. Mercer to That con- take it up and attend these Committees. ression work was very laborious because it was gener- ally thrown on the Crown Agents to thresh them out, and I am very thankful to be relieved of it.
1121. Broadly speaking, your work is organisation, discipline, finance, and the African and Chinese rail- ways; the second Crawn Agent, Major Cameron, does works, harbours, and all that sort of thing, and all other railways except Africa and Chinese; third Crown Agent has stores, pay, and miscellaneous, or matters such as agreements and stamps?--Yes.
and the
1122. Incidentally he delegates a good deal of his work to the secretary?—Yes, and he now deals with the attendance at the concession committees which, of course, give a good deal of work.
1123. It strikes me as a very odd arrangement-al- though I have no doubt it may work very well-that you should have charge of some railways and the second Crown Agent have charge of all the others ?---- You must remember that when I go it is quite posblo a different organisation may take place. I do not know whether you are aware that for a good many years Bir Montagu Otmanney and 1 were the only Crown Agents, and we went on until we had to represent to the Secretary of State that it was positively dangerous. If one of us got laid by and the other fell ill practically the offer would have come to a standstill, and the third Crown Agent was appointed. The question of these West African Railways has been more a question of policy than of engineering. I do not pretend to dea! with engineering matters; that is a question that the consulting engineers linve to deal with, but the West African railways have been an extraordinarily difficult and thorny question.
1124. (Sir Halph Moor.) Has it not fettered your hands perhaps to some extent on the ground of finance? -It did partly. Sir Montagu Ommanney dealt with it at first, and then I took it over from him. An im- mense deal of this business is settled by word of mouth with the consulting engineers; they come and consult u, and we have had to write to the Colonial Office n great many letters on questions of principle.
1125 (Chairman) If they want to com- and consult about an African railway they come and find you, but if it is any other railway except the Kowloon Railway they coms and find Major Cameron --Yes, but we talk these matters over and see each other's drafts if they are of any importance, and the result is that there is no difference of policy between us.
1195, In your ninth point you seem to think that there are some drawbacks in the offie, because you
** Th - nature of the present enquiry is shown by the proposal to interfere with the management by the In other words, the Crown Agents of their staff.
Crown Agents are not to be trusted to deal wisely and justly with their staff, while at the same time they an Allowed, and almost necessarily so, a very fros hand in conducting their business subject to the obligation of justifying their actions if" challenged. The present position is that the more important the work the greater the fresdom accorded to the Crown Agents, while as regards their office arrangements, they are told that they cannot be trusted when they recommend an extra penzion of £5 to a clerk whose services are exceptional, or grant gratuities to lady elerks who have left them on marriage and who havi been shabbily treated in the past. The whole position is in my opinion proposterous." Before you say any thing you refer there to the present enquiry, but this complaint you make is quite independent of this Com-
MINUTES OF EVIDENCE.
Sir E. BLAKE, K.C.M.G.
witter, is it not?--1 am afraid, Sir, it was in con sequence of this Committee that this attitude was taken up by the Colonial Office. You must pardon me for saying that I think it is a very hard thing that with all the responsibilities I have on my shoulders the Colonial Office should worry TILO when I recommend a pension. It is perfectly proper in itself; if there was anything wrong, if I fail sug- gesund a very large pension for very large gratuities, i Could imagine the Secretary of State challenging it, but I should have thought that the attitude of the Seretary of State would be:Surely the Crown Agents may be trusted to know their own business in the matter; there is nothing intrinsically wrong in their proposal, let them have their own way."
1127. Is it not the present position that in actual practice you have to get your pay or your pensions approved? I have not seen the minute; if I saw the minute probably I should know better.
1128, Has it not always been the position that the Secretary of State has had the power to call m question any increase of pension or inerease of staff ?- - He had, but it has always been the position amongst the upper ta mbers of the Colonial Office, the Unifer
cretaries, that after all the Crown Agents must held to be the best judges of the administration of their allice, and therefore the freer the hand which was given to them the better, provided that if they
ro "challenged they could justify it.
11:29), (Si. Prancis Moncuft.) Is not this criticism on the pension you have just ben alluding to a challenge to justify - Yes, and I think I have justified it.
1130. That is another matter.-My first letter I think justitied it, and in my second letter 1 did very bettle more than amplify the first, or rather draw utation to the facts stated in the first that may have even fat-apprshendes. I think it is abundamly' justi- Bied. I cannot conceive if a Crown Agent is not fit to do that work that he is fitted to do the very much more important work that is entrusted to him.
H31, (M). Harris.) May I ask at that point one or two questions I was going to ask you? Are you aware that successive Secretaries of State for some time have been very much dissatisfied as to one point least in
the calculation of the pensions of the Crown Agents" staff? I refer to the income-tax poundage, -- I am not aware of it.
1132. If the Chairman will allow us to go on with that now, would you mind explaining the incorre-tax poundage - think Mr. Gibson could explain that. The The origin of the income-tax poundage is lost. Audit Office queried us the other day and asked us how we disposed of our income-tax poundage, and I endeavoured to search out the origin of it, and I could not, but I turned up an old Parliamentary paper when the question of income tax poundage was gone into many years ago; it is a Report of the Public Accounts Committee, and attached to that was & return of how the Crown Agents dealt with their poundages, and it appeared that the way in which they then dealt with it was that they distributed it amongst their clerks. Sir Francis Mowatt will remember
A cele. bratel scandal at the War Office. In the case of our office, as the business has grown. the income-tax poundage has been a nice little bonus to our clerks.
1133. Have you no information how much is re
went ocived-It varies, and if the income-tax down, as we should all like very much, the poundage would go down.
1134. (Mr. Leathes.) Would you mind telling me what income-tax poundage is?--We get so much,_ _1 think it is 31. in the £ collected, and then we get 31. or fl. or something like that for each individual from whom we collect income-tax, and it amounts now to shout four per cent, on the salaries of our clerks. The elerks are most grateful for it because they say it about pays for their holidays, so that it is a delightful windfall which comes to them every year,
1135. (Mr. Harris.) Would you mimi telling us on what principle it is handed over to the clerks? Is it not really earned by the Office--I can only tell you that it has been done from time immemorial.
1138. In your own opinion. Is it fair to hand that over without bringing it into the accounts of the Office?
55
129 June 1908.
-1 think it is perfectly fair, because it has always been the case. If we were to make a fresh departure perhaps I should pay it into the Office fund, but it is not a new departure; I have simply carried on the system which has existed since the origin of the Office. 1137. I should like to put a dilemma to you there. If, as you say, it is practically a private receipt, not paid into the Office fund, is it fair to pension the clerks upon what is apparently an outside receipt ?—— It is a bonus such as Sir Albert Spicer might give to his clerks who had done good work.
1138. (Sir Ralph Moor.) Are you not really in rela- tion to the Inland Revenue in the matter of poundage in the same relation as you aru to a Crown Colony 1-- No.
1130. You are receiving a commission on work done in the same way as you receive a commission from a Crown Colony for work done; you are paid according to the volume of the work?—Yes.
1140. Then surely you are acting as agents for the Inland Revenue, and the money so earned should go into the Office Fund, especially if you are to pension since the upon it -But this system has existed beginning of the office. The Audit Office raised the question, and I had to say we were unable to trace the origin of it. All I can say is, that it came before the Public Accounts Committee many years ago and it was not demurred to.
1141. (Mr. Leathes.) Does it really amount to four per cent. on the salaries 7-Roughly.
staff.
1142. How high up does it go?-To every one on the 1143. Including the secretary?—Not the secretary; we rule him out.
1144. (Chuirmun.) Everybody except the Crown Agents and the secretary?--Yes, we have had clean bands in the matter because we have given it to them
present.
15
1145. Why is the secretary left out? Because it was an appointment that was not at all palatable to the office the oflice did not at all like it.
1146. Which office! Our staff did not at all like the appointment, and we did not want to make his relations rougher, and I think he is very well paid. His was a new appointment.
1147. Did you appoint him for so much per annum without poundage?" Yes; we have not given him the poundage, and I do not propose to give it to him.
1148. You might give it to him at any moment 7— We can do with it what we like.
1149. You could give the whole sum to one man if you chose? If we chose to be so arbitrary and unjust. 1150. Or you might carry that much further, as you say you have a complete control over your office, and instead of giving it all to them to pay for their holidays, you might give a very much larger proportion to some who dil good work and less to
That
WAS
thers?
I may say that the basis of distribution has been altered over and over again, because originally it was given mainly to the men who were actually engaged in collecting the income tax. felt to be a grievance by the men who did not collect the tax,” and they said, "We are placed in s particular Department, you settle where we should be placed, and it is very hard that we should not have the same
we have fixed privilege"; and now it on
a basis which I think is fair to everybody, that is to
say. we give £5
the head to people who
are really engaged in making out the returns which are required by the Inland Revenue, and the rest is distributed pro rata, secording to the salaries, and all those objections and worries have ceased since that system has been intro Jul.
a
1161. How long ago did you do this?-Five or six years ago.
1132. Until this was done there was discontent?- A great deal of discontent, because the men thought they were unfairly treated; there was a great deal of heartburning, that has all been' put an end to.
1153. (Mr. Bailey.) As to the extent of the work done in the way of income-tax collection, 1 under-
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