CO885-(18-19) — Page 716

PUBLIC RECORD OFFICE

Reference :-

ITC.O.885

19 PUBLIC RECORD OFFICE, LONDON

ALLY WITHOUT PERMISSION OF THE BE REPRODUCED PHOTOGRAPHIC- COPYRIGHT PHOTOGRAPH—NOT TO

ht

29 .7une 1908.]

CROWN AGENTS' ENQUIRY COMMITTEE:

Sir E. BLAKE, K.C.M.G.

stand your Department assesses and practically levies income tax upon all the payments it makes ?—You.

We are 1154. And they are considerable ?--Yes. Commissioners, and the Inland Revenue delegate to I think it is very us a great deal of their powers, creditable to our staff that there was an alteration in the law made last year, and the returns required were very much more intricate than they have ever been before, anil the income-tax people said that our office had dealt with those new returns more intel- ligently than any other office that they had to deal with, and I think that is a very great compliment to them.

1165. (Chairman.) They seem to have some imagina. tion --They dealt with the returns very well indeed.

1156. (3). Harris.) Coming back once more to the pont I started from, can now get you to admit that your statement as to income-tax poundage really suggests that the Secretary of State was bound to query it as a pensionable emolument?—I do no think so: I say that ever since I have been con- nected with the office the men have been pensioned on their income-tax poundage.

1157, (Chairman.) I will just run through these questions very shortly, and then each member of the Committee would probably like to ask you a question Supposing you were going to or two about thein. recruit for all your non-technical posts by open com petition through the Civil Service, which examina- tion would you consider most suitable for the pur pose? May I say something before I deal with hat? First of all. I do not know about the examinations. Secondly, what I think would be a very great difficulty is this, that a man may pass an admirable examina tion and be intellectual and able so far as examina- tion is concerned, but he may prove to be a very un- desirable and unsuitable man, and we might desire to get rid of him. What we should feel is this: sup- posing, for instance, we had a man of that kind passing an excellent examination, who came to us, and we found him absolutely unmethodical, im practicable, and everything of the kind, and we cerved that man to go; an agitation might be raised, and probably would, and questions would be ask in Parliament Is it the case that this particular man "A" passed a magnificent examination and has been discharged by the Crown Agents on the ground of incompetency?" I should like to know how you could answer a question of that kind?

1158, I will put you another question. Does mit that apply in qual degree to all the other Govern- ment Departments?--I think I would leave the other Government Departments; they are able to defend themselves, and we are not able to defend ourselves, When I have heard these attacks in Parliament I have longed intensely to be able to get up and answer them instead of living to sit and bear them. shout like, for instance, to have been able to answer Ford Portsmouth in the House of Lords. Any greater nonsense I never heard in my life.

1159. Do you consider that your independence of Government Departments is so great that there is none really to defend you in the House of Commons? -I think the Colonial Office ought to defend 11%. but [ think as rule they give such answers that they leave the impression "that there is Something left behind.

1160, However, you consider you are not adequately defendled in Parliament? I do not think we are.

1161. That is a fault in the present organisation from your plant of vow ?—No, I think it is the fault of the Colonial Office.

1162. Taking this world as we find it, the organisa- from of the other is faulty and it has nobody adequately to defend it? You remember what Lord Curzon said the other day: "That the answering of questions in Parliament had become a fine art-the art of giving with an apparent air of candour the leant possible information."

1183. (Ms. Teather.) When a question is asked in Tarliament concerning the Crown Agents' office, where at is referred to you, do you suggest the answer?—It Was not done in the past, and I asked Bir

Francis Hopwood that that might be done in

ani fufure,

he promised it should be done. This Committee was, however, lecided upon. before 1 was consulted, and 1 think it was a very hard thing that it should be so, Might give you an bitterly stance in point, Sir? We feel it very imbel. There was a mist venomous article written shout us in the "* Empire Review" by an ex-Colonial Governor, and although he is dead I am bound to Say something about it. A question was asked in Parliament about us, and this man said that the archives of the Colonial Office were crowded with com- plaints against the Crown Agents. Instead of openly meeting that and saying it was untrue, the Colonial I think that was Office gave an evasivo answer. very hard upon us.

1161. (Chairman.) May 1 ask you a question upon that, 1 koop nu coming back to the same kind of If you point, and you will excuse me for doing so. were in closer touch with the Colonial Office, or if, in point of fact, you were a Government Department. would all these troubles be cured?—The Secretary' of State would then take the responsibility upon his own shoublers.

1185. But you would be adequately defended then as other Departments are Our answer would be: "It is the Secretary of State, it does not concern us; if the Secretary of State chooses to take a particular cours he must defend it; it is his own affair, not ours."

1166, I gather it has caused you very real distress at different times?--Yes, at times it worries me exces- sively.

1167. And all thus excessive worry wotthd be swept away if you were made a branch of the Civil Service? I have not a doubt, because then the Secretary of State would feel that the attack was upon himself.

116% So that when you say you are very much. against any chang, nevertheless you realise that very real and great distress, fix use your own words, would I'v I removed from you if a change were made? dombrelly, fant, on the other hand, I am sure the work would suffer.

1169. One other question arising out of the precis you have killy sent. Supposing that you were organised like the Stores Department of the India Office or the Accountant-General's Department of the India Office and such a thing is possible-in that case we find from the evidence we have before us that they recruit a certain number of first division clerks? - Yes.

case

1170. In your judgment is that necessary in the

of your office?-As result of

1

my very long experience, I should say that ours is a prac tical office, and that the best way to deal with it is to look at it simply by results: does the Crown Agency turn out good work? If it does. I think that is the most abundant answer to every question that is askel.

1171. You think the present method of recruiting is adequate? I think it is. I do not say it will always by Kre, I think the Crown Agents should have an absolutely free hand to recruit as they may think necessary. I think the very keystone of the existence of the office is the perinal responsibility of the Crown Agents. So long as the Secretary of State says I know nothing about your staff; I do not care about it; I look to you." I think the office will be a success. If that personal responsibility is taken away I think the office will become a failure.

1172. In 1883 and 1464 it was finally decided that your staff should be appointed in this way; that is to say, in your own discretion: you remember that? --Yes.

1173. And in return for your accepting personal responsibility. Was that actually laid down in 18637

1174. I think we may read it in that way; but it has been modified undoubtedly by subsequent de cisions. However, whatever the origin, this practice of getting the staff as the Crown Agents pleased was in force before you were appointed ?—Yes.

1175. It has been pointed out to me that in those days, 1864, the principle of appointment by com- petitive examination did not exist, at any rate to the

MINUTES OF EVIDENCE.

Sir E. BLAKE, K.C.M.G.

full extent, in other Government departments, so that you could not have adopted any other?-1 got into the Civil Service in 1863 by a competitive exami- mation.

1176. But it was not universal?-It was not open competition, but limited competition.

1177. The whole system is of later growth;, in the course of the last 44 years?--You.

IN

¢

case

1178. Do you still think it is an unsuitable system? One man we had to I do, for an office like ours. dispense with in connection with the loss of the Transvaal work

in point. Wo took in several University men, and they had all drifted away from us except this one man. Several of them have gone abroad. One of these young follows we took in was a university man; he was a nies fellow, a well-educated man arud everything of that kind, but he was hopelessly unmethodical, That man monade more mistakes than the most junior of the junior clerks. I moved him from one Department to another and did everything in my power to induce the man to work up. but he could not do it.

1178a. (Mr. Briley.) Did he come to you straight from the university Yes.

1170. What salary did you pay him!- £100 1 think begin with but it was the fact that there was something radically wrong with the man's mind. Nothing could prevent him making mistakes, and there was nothing to do but get rid of him, because he was always getting us into hot water.

1180. (Chairman.) We enunot go into individual cases. We want a class of man we can get rid of if they are not suitable.

1181. I think these are all the questions that I, as Chairman, had to ask you, but there

The is

little gatter with regard to this appendix you have kindly furnished us with relating to the organisation of the Crown Agents' office, showing the total 227. there is a second column for salaries which has not been filled in. The salaries I put in this other one because this is in classes. If you look at Appendix 2 you will get all

the salarien.

1182. But what we want to do is to see the compari- son between your organisation and, let us say, the India Office organisation. If you put in those salaries find then total them it will make the paper clear.—- They can be put in certainly, in fact I think I have a return here* "(kawding in the same), only I thought the other gave it to you in a more convenient shapë,

1183. This one we have is, of course. a very con- venient one, and would do if it had the salaries put in the second colunin and then the totṇis given. From that we would see at once what the total cost of it was.--What I have now handed in contains it.

1184. (Mr. Bailey.) Wo have seen something about an office insurance scheme applied to your Department. Will you kindly give us sonte information about that? The origin of it was that from time to time we had sery distressing cases of men dying having made no provision for their wives and dependents, and it had - got to be a habit always to give something of the nature of a gratuity in cases of that kind. Of course, it was a very unsound system, because it amounted to this, that the more improvident the man the more was done for him. Bir Montagu Ommanney and I thought the matter out, and we were able to induce th Secretary of State to allow us to have an insurance scheme for our staff. They are allowed to insure for certain amounts, and they pay five per cent, on their salary and the office pays the balance.

1185. As a matter of fact. I think rather mere is paid out of the office fund than is borne by the sala ries-That is so; in the case of the elderly men it was considerably so. As the scheme gets into full operation, of course it will not be so much so, because we go to a mutual society, so that in thirty years the contributions are at an end. In the ordinary course a man's liability will be discharged during his

rvice.

1186. In the case of an ordinary man entering at the ordinary age? By the time he is sixty he will be quite

* Inerrpus male din Appendix 1

[rec.

57

[29 June 1908.

It was done entirely to get over the personal worry we had in dealing with these things.

1187. (Chairman.) And it gives satisfaction to the staff?-Very great satisfaction, and I consider that it gives us the greatest hold over our staff possible, be cause the men know that if there was any corruption they would lose these benefits. We have very absolute powers under the Trust Deed, and it would be a very serious thing for them.

1188. (Sir Albert Spicer.) Are they all insured for the same amount?—No.

1189. (3r. Harris.) Wo have had in evidence a general sketch of the way in which the India Office- the Accountant General's branch-manage their loans; would you kindly give the Committee quite a brief ac- count of your arrangement for issuing loans. It has a bearing, you will see, upon your staff as compared with a Civil Service staff-Where a loan is to be is- sued, that is one case in which the Secretary of Statu delegates absolute power to the Crown Agents; he simply sends us the Loan Act and gives us authority to raise the loan. It is then within our discretion as to when we will issue it and on what terms we will issue it; simply, of course, we are under the obligation of justifying our action. The procedure is that we discuss the terms with our brokers, and we arrive at a conclusion as to the best time of operating and the best price that can be got.

119, (Mr. Bailey.) Do you consult your bankers

Also?—No.

1191, (Me. Harria.) Have you compared your fixed charges for issuing loans with those by the India Office?-Our terms are practically the same: as those on which the Bank of Englawl and the London and Westminster issue loans.

1192. We also hard some evidene. as to the tem- porary investment, of balances arising from loans in the India nice. Would you are to give the Com- mitter any information about your practic?-1 can When the £30,000,000 kive a very striking instance. loan was raised for the Transvaal all that money came into our hanis and had to be dealt with. If it had been in the hands of the Bank of England no use whatever wonhl have been made of that money, lent that money out, and I earned for the Colony. I think. between £50,000 and £60,000. Lord Milner was not aware of it, and he had a deficit on his Budget and suddenly woke up to the fact: Why the Crown Agents have earned me enough to balance my bulget." and he referred to it publicly.

1199. (Chairman.) I might ask, arising out of that, to whom do you lend? What restrictions do you place We loud always on very pad upon yones de s security; we take good care that there shall always be surity. We lend a great deal of money that come into our hands in the busines - itself, that is to say, to our other Colonies who are wanting moneys, but we always see our way to replace The other moneys we do not wind we lend to the London and Westumuster Bank. The Bank of Eng- land will not allow interest on deposits.

11.

1194. What I want to ask you is not whether you do it well or ill, that is not the question, but if you have any precise rules, as, of course, they have in Departments of State, limiting the investments which you may make. Do you say? We will only lend on Certain trustove securities?” At one time we used to knd on the Stock Exchange, but it caused us a good deal of trouble and anxiety, and we gave it up, and therefore we lend only to the banks and, of course, they are good enough. When I had this very large sum of money for the Transvaal in my hands, I lent s certain proportion to the London and Westminster, a certain proportion to the Union, and a certain prov- portion to the Joint Stock.

1896, Mr. Bailes,;. Do you make special bargains in this eas Always.

You do not simply put it on deposit "No. ! always make special barguins.

1197. Not only as to the rate of interest. but as to the terms Yes, I always make spreial terms

11988. And f¶s seured on the erolit of the bank ` On the evalit of the bank

⚫ 21

II