PUBLIC RECORD OFFICE
ཀ།།། །
Reference :-
C.O.885
19 PUBLIC RECORD OFFICE, LONDON
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15 June 18.]
CROWN AGENTS' ENQUIRY COMMITTEE:
Mr. E. G. Burls, C.8.I.
the vhw of your staff-that they should be paid as other Civil servants are?--I should not think they would mind where they got their money from so long as they got their money, provided the revenue was assuri.
446. (Sir Francis Mowatt.) What is one with the percentage on the stores which you receive? 1 sup pose it is paid over to the Indian Exchequer ?—We receive no percentage.
417. And your salaries are not paid out of it ?- There is an exception; I cannot tell you what it is- possibly the Acountant-General when you see him may be able to tell yon-but with regard to certain provħn- cial funds we charge them 2 per cent, on actual cost.. which comes to a very small ainount practically negli gible.
418. That answers my question: What do you do with that 2 per ceut?—I am afraid I cannot tell you.
449. But having received it it is carried to some account? It is carried to some account, and the Accountant-General confd tell you about it; I do not kngw what is done with it. I do not recover it. It may be dealt with either in England or in India; I do not know.
450. (Chairman.) Now about the staff. you said you could give us a statement us to the strength of your staff and the rates of their salaries?—I have not had time to submit a statement. because I only had notice at 12 o'clock on Saturday that you wished to see ine to-day, and I was unfortunately going down to the country. The whole department is governed by the Director-General of Stores, and he is assisted at the India Office by a deputy, and at the India Store Depôt by a superintendent and a deputy superintendent.
41. That is over the river?—Yes. At the India Office we have 3 senjor clerks and 4 junior clerks, and in different grades we have 20 second-class clerks and 4 clerks of a special technical nature. At the India Store Dept we have an assistant to the superintendent and 10 Supervisors. Those supervisors are men of a class between the senior and junior clerks of the first division of the Civil Service. They are men who have been almost wholly pronted from clerks of the second division, and they have been trained at the India Store Depôt to take charge of Departments, such as the Patterns, the Accounts, Invoicing, and so on. We have, besides. 15 second-class clerks. 39 inspectors of stores of various grades, and a few other miscellaneous appointments of which I will give you a list. This is only roughly made out in my writing, and might not be quite intelligible.
452. What roughly are the salaries paid; for in- stance, let us take the case of these supervisors, what do they get The supervisors of the first grale get from £400 to £500 a year, and of the second grade from £250 to £400.
453. And these clerks ?-The clerks are ordinary scale of the Civil Service.
461. Such as 2--The man who is a steel examiner must be trained in sque steel factory; it must have been the business of his life.
462. Do you advertise?-Oh, no; sonetimes we do if we have any diffienity., The best way is to make inquiries in the trade.
463. At the great steel works?—Yes, and some of our men come from. Woolwich.
461. Now as to the seniors in your Department, how are they appointed. How were you appointed --I vas appointed a kupovary clerk, and fremained a temporary clerk for two years, and I have worked my way up since,
465. You have gone up the ladder!-Exactly, from the lowest rung to the top.
46. Is that the method which you should recom mend pursuing?-- Yes, if a man will do what I did.
465, But will a uinn - Ah that I cannot tell you. I took every opportunity of learning; 1 spent holidays at works and at Woolwich, and travelled all over th Country at my own expense and learned. I know my limitations: I do not pretend to be a technical man. but I can check some of the technical me
468. This is a point we have specially to advise upon as to the staff and how it should be appointed, anl the great difficulty does arise in the method of selvet- ing the people at the top ?~My idea, if you will allow ine to say so, is that if you have a good administrator at the top the less l knows about technical matters perhaps the better, provided he has absolutely efficient advice.
460. You think you could rely upon the method of letting each one work his way up and rise to the top of their side of it by his own ability, and let the tech- nical people brought in from outside be the only persons with technical knowledge selected by other methods?-I think, subject to the reservation I made, you might, but it depends very much on the indi- vidual.
470. (Sir Francis Moratt.) Is not
your staff worked as all great public departments are worked, that is to say, if you find a man in the ordinary classification of ability and rising you let him rise?— Crtainly.
471. But when you cannot find a man (although there are plenty of good respectable men) really quali fies to fill the most responsible post in the office you find hit where you can ?--That is inevitable.
472. (Chairman.) With regard to the tenure and rates of pension, are they the same as in the Civil Service-Exactly the saw, based on the Treasury rules.
473. And you think that is on the whole most satis- factory think so; I think it works very satisfac torily.
474. Supposing this Committee were to ask on tite
454. (Sir Francis Moratt.) A large proportion are Second Division clerks ?----Yes, we have only seven clerks of the First Division in the whole department?
455. (Mr. Gibson.) Practically the whole of your clerical staff comes under the first or second division scale? Practically it all comes under the second division scale; we have only seven of the first division in the whole department.
456. (Sir Francis Moratt.) These supervisors are really staff officers of the second division?—Yes, and our inspectors are all technical men.
457, (t'hairman.) How do you recruit these people? -The clerks all come from the Civil Servicù Com- mission with two exceptions; there is one special clerk for inance stores and one special clerk for railway stores, and we get them wherever we ran find them but.
458. About the supervisors: are they technical?— No..
459. And the inspectors?- All the inspectors are technical. I have 30 inspectors,
400. How do you recruit them --We get them from their own particular trades.
whether you would like to be pineod on the same basis you as. the Crown Agents Office, what would you say?—In point of view of salary. I should.
475. But barring the salaries and pensions, from the point of view of tenure and management of the office you would say no?--I am not sure about that; if you give me that salary and give me full power I think I should like to take the Crown Agents' posi-
tion.
176. What do you say about the staff? I should like to go into the figares: I have not got the Crown Agents' figures, but Sir Elward Law, who was then Finance Minister of the Government of India. came to me one day and disensual a proposal for making me independent of the India Ofee and allowing me, say, 5 per cent, on my stores: putting the Stores Office in the City and letting me control the whole thing. I said I should be delighted, but that I did not think it would be a paying game for Government. We cost 11 per cent, and he offered me 5.
477. Was that a proposal seriously entertained?--- It was a proposal he meant to put forward if I hat supported it he was very keen on it, and he discussed th matter with me out in fudia when I was there on deputation.
478. (Sir Francis from your answer.
Moratt.) Di T пор gather that personally you will be
MINUTES OF EVIDENCE.
Mr. E. G. BrREs, C.8.L.
glad to adopt such a scheme, but from an administra- five and economical point of view of the Indian Govern- ment you would not think it was a desirable arrange-- ment-Precisely.
479, (Mr. Baily.) After you have placed an order for any work, do you find serious delay in getting that work executed?—It depends upon the state of the market in the comtry; we frequently have very serious delays.
480. In all classes of work?--Anything. 481. You have a large store in Lambeth, have you Hol? Yes.
482. Would you kindly explain to us what you keep in that store!-We do not keep anything; we get ridl
of it as fast as we can.
483. You do not keep any stock, for instance, of standardised articles?--We keep no stock at all.
484. About your shipping agent; have you in your mind the figure at the present moment of what you pay him a year?--We pày hìm 3d. n ton. I will not be quite certain as to the details, but I can say that in 1905-6 wo paid the shipping agent £4.185.
485. Do you think it better, from the point of view, of course, of the administration of the office, to employ an outside shipping agent rather than have a mañ of your own - He is practically a man of our own; 1 Dink it better that he should have an outside business, because he is in constant touch with the trafe, and he would not be under the suspicion that a Government man would be if he were in the City. He can get us better information than we can get for ourselves.
4. I gathered from you just now, however, that ho has very little private traife?–1 do not know what his private trade is; I have not asked, but I think the bulk of his business is ours.
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[15 June 1988.
487. You would probably get him a good deal more cheaply if you employed an officer yourselves?—I doubt it; I am not quite sure.
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48. Taking into account the counter-balancing advantages you have mentioned, you think on the whole it is better it should be as it is ?-1 think so.
489. Would you tell me what the pay of the technical inspector is?—There are two grades: the junior grade commence at £150 and rise to 4250; the higher grade commence at £250 and rise to £350.
490), (Sir Francis Mowatt.) 1 understand you will put in a list ?—Yes; I will have a list* properly made out and put it in.
491. (Mr. Harris.) Following up a question which the Chairman has asked you, you apparently have no great desire to have a more autocratic power over your staff? No, I can control them perfectly.
492. I have gathered from the Crown Agents that,
in their opinion, if you made their staff more like the Civil Service they could not control it as they would like to be able to. You do not think there is any fear of that?—I should have no fear of it.
493. (Mr. Gibson.) Has it ever been insidered at the India Office whether you should employ, as the War Oflice do, the Admiralty Transport Department to place your shipping orders-I do not know whether it has ever been considered, but I should not approve it. We can do so much better for all shipping work. Besides, the Admiralty is not absolutely comparable with ourselves because they are shipping all over the world to all sorts of little ports, to which there is no line of steamers, whereas we only ship to India mainly to five or six ports to each of which there are several lines of steamers. I do not think we have anything to learn from the Admiralty in the way of freight work --I hope not.
The witness withdrew.
Adjourned to Friday next at half-past 10 o'clock.
THIRD DAY,
Friday, 19th June, 1908.
At th: Colonial Office, Downing Street.
PRESENT:
COLONEL J. E. B. SEELY, D.S.O., M.P. (Chairman). The Rt. Hon. Sir F. MowATT, G.C.B., I.8.0.
Sir RALPH Moon, K.C.M.G.
H. J. Gingos, Esq., C.B.
R. BAILEY, Esq., M.V.O., I.8.0. S. M. LEATHEs. Esq.
C. A. HARRIS, Esq., C.B., C.M.G.
A. J. HARDING (Secretary),
Mr. J. D. KɛɛS, UNO,, CLE., M.P., called and examined.
494. (Chairman) Would you like to begin straight away ami tell the Committee in broad-outline what you wish to bring to their notice?—I am rather at the disposal of the Committee; I was asked to come as a witness, and I have come, and I would much rather, if I may venture to suggest it, answer to the last of my ability what I am asked, and then, if we touch upon anything that particularly concerns ble, I will endeavour to enlarge upon it as far as you think desirable.
1995. We shall be glad to adopt that method if you will tell us upon what particular points or on which side of the matter you hold the strongest vows and have the fullest knowledge-When you stated in the
House what were the terms of reference, I asked if they included a consideration of the position of the Crown Agents as intermediaries between the com- mrcial world, the City in short, and the Colonial Office, and you said that practically the terms of reference did include that subject.
4. I should say at once that the Committee have decided that in order that they may form a just estimate of how far it is desirable to alter the arrange- ments in the Crown Agents' Office, they must ascer- tain, broadly speaking, what the Crown Agents do, and how they do it, and if general satisfaction is given.
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