CO885-(18-19) — Page 690

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C.O.885

19 PUBLIC RECORD OFFICE, LONDON

ALLY WITHOUT PERMISSION OF THE BE REPRODUCED PHOTOGRAPHIC- COPYRIGHT PHOTOGRAPH—NOT TO

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15 f. 1985.]

CROWN AGENTS' ENQUIRY COMMITTEE:

Mr. 11. B. Cox, C.B.

has been rather more liberal in the pensions he has given to the Crown Agents and the Crown Agents' statt than would have been possible under Civil Ser- Vie rules.

35g That is a personal advantage, but I mean as au adumeistrative" advantage. Do you think, for in- stame, thât de stall is better for entering without exatornata in and at the discretion of the appointing chef No. I do not think there is an advantage in that.

3-7, 1- there any advantags, if he is under the con- tred of the Colonial Office, that he should not receive his salary from the votes ?-- None.

388. Do you see any objection to regulating the classification and the numbers of each class as in the case of the Civil Service?--No, no objection; I think the control of the Treasury in these matters on recog nised principles is very advantageous.

389. (Mr. Harris.) When you speak about the con- And of the Treasury, do you not rather reza juto Str Fraticis Mowatt's question a suggestion that the control shall be transferred from the Secretary of State to the Treasury, and does not that import sponsability which the Treasury would rather object ta - I assumed. from Sir Francis patting this, that it was possible that the Treasury night" be willing to take the responsibility you suggest,

3:00 Assuming that the Crown Agents are servants of the Crown actually appointed by the Secretary of State representing the Colonies, would not the real answer the Chairman's questioi to you be this, that if the fund sullenly was depleted, the Secretary of State could say to the Colonies. Here is this Agents' staff for which we are all responsible; you must vote so much and make up the fund"?—He could do so e rtainly.

391. Is not that practically what does constantly happen in the Crown Colonies?—Not with regard to the Crown Agents.

3. No, but supposing in a particular department there is a shortage and you want to adjust it, the Secretary of State gives the direction, moes he not, that a particular vote should be put on the estimates? -Y. S.

33, And there is no reason, therefore, why he should not use the same machinery in the case of the Crown Agents?—l'he same machinery could no doubt be used, That is to say, the control of the Secretary of State could be invoked under those circumstances. 304. Directly on the Colonial Estimates?—Yes.

5. (Chairman.) Would it not be better in your view if, instead of this arrangement by which this fun is sometimes increased to an enormous sum by the charging of commissions, the Secretary of State were to iltrect each Crown Colony to pince upon its estimates a sufficient sum to pay the staff of the Crawn Agents as in the case of all other Civil servants! That would be possible, no doubt; I think either system would work equally well. Of entre, there always has been the "ilen, when the reserve fund reached a very large sum and was regarded as more than sufficient for any possible need, that the rate of commission for the Colonies shouki be lowercal, so that they would gain in that way.

3945, (Sir Ralph Mon, May 1 take it that the com- mission is at such a low rate that in a year when the Crown Agents do not have to place any very big loans and so on they have to go on with money from that fund-They do.

957, (t'hairman.) Mr. Harding informs me that they have orensionally reduced the commissions. chargeable—That is so.

3. It gems a very haphazard way of doing busi- ness however—The reserve fund is partly invested and partly used as a dating balance, just like a privat brm, which in one year may make a large jrofit on its business and the next year may make à deficit and use the one to balance the other.

The witness withdrew.

Mr. E. G. Bents, C.S.L., called and examined.

390, Chairman.) What is your official title?- Director General of Stores at the ludia Office.

400. We are very glad to have you here to advise 118 very broadly, apart from detail, as to how the busi- mess is done in the India Office. What takes place from beginning to end in a transaction, bearing in jind that we want to compare it with what takes

Department this Committee has been asked to inquire? in the case of the Crown Agents, into whose -As stated in the *paper which your secretary was kind enough to send me, our practice is almost the same as that of the Crown Agents.

491. Will you describe what happen. Take a con crete case?--We get dematids from Iulia, and they are submitted for the approval of the Secretary f State.

4. Let us taky the case of building a great bridge? -Yes, say that we have a demand for bridge work,

13. Sir Francis Muratt.) Demands from whom~- from the governor of a province --It may be; it is either from the Government of Inlta or the chief en- gineer who is duly authorised for the purpose, or from

local government.

to are nut

11. But the demands you attend demands of individuals, or companies, or a district, but from some brauch of the Iulian Government administration ?--A!l demands emanate from the ad- ministration of the Government of India. We have nothing to do with municipal supplies, port trusts, or bodies of that kind throughout India.

405. Nor from a Rajah --No.

408, (Chairman,) Purely Government departments? Panely Government departments.

407. It happens that is very much the biggest ordering mat in India 1 should imagine Certainly, far and away.

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108. Say that you get this demand for a bridge, what happens?—It is submitted to the Secretary of State for sauction, and during the time which it takes to get that sanction we get out specifications, and, if by any chance. the sauction were delayed, we invite tenders, but no order is placed until the Secretary of State has sanctioned the supply.

109. How d you invite tenders?--That depends on the circumstances of the case. For bridge work we know all the big bridge builders, and we do not adver- tise, but we invite the leading frms of bridge builders to tender. The tenders, whvii received, are considered, and I seek advice as to the acceptance of the tender most favourable to Government. It may be, and very frequently is that that is not the hawist tender. It depends upon the character of the firm and the quality of the material they are going to use,

410. Who advises you the people whom you em ploy-Either one of my own officers, or Sir Alexander Heidel, the consulting engineer to the Secretary of State, but he is only consulting engineer for State railways. Still, I avail myself of his advice on occa- sions when I want to appeal to a higher authority that possibly one of my own officers,

111. Then the tender, having been ultimately accepted, on the advice as you have explained, of course, they get to work, and is your part of the busi mess then concluded?—Oh, no. I have a large staff of inspectors, and so has Sir Alexander Rendel."

412. (Sir Francis Moraft.) Before you go into that, is your approval of a tender or acceptance of a tender submitted for the approval of the Secretary of State? -Certainly not if it is the lowest teuler, or the lowest temler in accordance with the specification. If I pass over or wish to pass over the lowest tender for good and sufficient reasons. I have to submit the matter to the Secretary of State.

MINUTES OF EVIDENCE.

Mr. E. G. BURLA, C.S.I.

413. (Sir Ralph Moor.) You accept no responsibility for the plan in any way I am afraid all the responsibility is imposed upon me.

414. For the plast, as being a sound plan ?—It depends. We criticise the Indian plaus if they are dangerous, extravagant or uneconomical, you might

say.

115. If you wish to alter them do you alter them on your own authority or do you refer to the Secretary of State?—Variations in specifications are not submit- ted to the Secretary of State, we should either refer the specifications back to India, or if we did not consider the modifications of sufficient importance we shoubi make them ourselves, but now that the telegraph rates hape been so much reduced we almost invariably tele graph to Tudin in the event of anything like an important modification being made in a demand.

416. You see that the plans are efficient and sound? -Crtainly.

417. And you take the entire responsibility for the specification? Entirely.

418, (Chairman,) How is the stuff shipped?-For bridgework we make contracts for delivery flo,b., and, of course, it depends upon where it is manufactured as to the port from which it should be shipped to India.

419. You make the arrangements for shipping?— The whole of them.

120, How do you do that; do you advertise?—We milvertise in a sense; we do not advertise in the news- papers, but we post notices of our requirements at Glasgow. Liverpoid, and London.

421. That you require so many tons of bridge work to be conveyed to such and such a port. ?—Yes.

422. At such and such freights?-No, they quote us the freight and then our function of criticisni comes in. 423. You said you would tell us as to the divisions into which your department is divided &—The India Office Store Department has two branches, one at the India Office and ono at the India Store Thepôt in the Belvedere Road, Lambeth. At the India Office we deal with the examination of indents, with all correspondence in relation to them and with all con- tracts, whether for the purchase of stores or for freight, to India. At the India Store Depôt we deal purely with inspection, invoicing and shipment.

424. Another point was as to the general volume of busituas you do?—You speak of values. We have been averaging for the last three or four years about 4 millions sterling annually and our shipments amount to about 250,000 tons a year, taking weight and measurement together.

425, (Mr. Gibaon.) Would you include your orders for armaments through the War Office-Everything. 426. (Chairman.) It includes everything that is sent to the Government —Everything sent to India for Government use.

427. (Sir Ralph Moor.) Might T revert to the ques- tion of responsibility? You say you would accept responsibility for the plans of a bridge. I presume you submit them to your consulting engineers?— Certainly.

428. And your consulting engineers advise you, and therefore you say you accept entire responsibility?—

Yes.

429. When that work is carried out and is ready for shipment, you inspect it ?—Yes.

4. You have it inspected?--Yes,

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431. By inspectors attached to your office or by your consulting engineer's inspectors?-If it was bridge for the Public Works Department in India my officers would inspect; if it was a bridge for a railway line then the consulting engineer or his officers would inspect.

432. Having had the inspection carried out, you directing who should do it, you accept entire responsi bility for that inspection and the report?—Yes,

433. And in the same way with the shipping: you do not employ outside shipping brokers -No, we have one of our own.

434. Attached to your office?-He is employed by us on commission.

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[15 June 1918,

435. He can take other business --Yes, l has other business.

436. He has a commercial office of his own?--Yus, but I fancy that in our case the outside work he gets is comparatively small; the bulk of the work is for

437. (Mr. (ibson.) But you have noi a Transport Department like the Admiralty --Nu.

India.

438. (Chairman,) Before we go on to the staff, which is a very interesting point we want to get from you, might I ask how the thing works, in your judgment? Of course, you are naturally proud of your othice, and we all know it is very efficient, but, taking the method you adopt, which is, of course, to wholly different to that of the Crown Agents, in which they are in a sense independent of the Civil Service, does it, from your point of view, work well that you should be a strictly Government Department in the Civil Service? That question has been raised before, and I have considered it. and I think, unless conditions were very much varied, the department works as well as any ordinary commercial office. There is prac- tically no red tape; ever since I have been in charge, for 12 years, 1 have put my foot down on all red tape, and beyond the fact that I have to get special sanction from the Secretary of State and from the Under-Secretary of State under certain conditions I have no restrictions whatever, and I work really as if I were the head of a big private firm.

4:09. Of shippers and agents?—Yes, a big merchant firm.

440. (Sir Francis Mowatt.) Is not red tape simply the regulations which the experience of the departinent has shown to be necessary for the efficient evinduet of business consider that red tape, apart from its offensive meaning, is absolutely essential in any wet- ordered oflice, whether it is mercantile or Government,

441. And in that sense it is not entirely absent from yours. I hope -Certainly not, or else there would be

no success.

41. (Chairman.) You purchase nothing for anybody except the Government, and I was not quite certain whether the Crown Agents in the same way purchase nothing except for the Government-Mr. Harris, how- ever, thinks that is so-I think the two cases are very nearly parallel. It seems to me that paragraphs and of this Memorandum illustrate practically the work of my department; the Crown Agents buy twor three things we do not buy and we buy several they do not buy, but beyond that they buy exactly the same class of things throughout that we do.

443. Only one more question, which brings us on to the staff, which is the last point you have been good enough to say you can give us evidence upon. As you know, in the case of the Crown Agents they are not paid by the State at all, but a certain percentage is levied on their different transactions, and that creates a larger or smaller reserve fund, and from that both the salaries and the pensions of the staff are pail. Supposing it were suggested that the same thing should be done in your ollice, which it quite easily could, would you view that with favour or disfavour? -If I had the chance of the Crown Agents in dealing with loans I should say: "Give me the chance," but I have not. That is dealt with outside. The expenses of my department are and have been for the last few shipped. for 1900-6, the only year for which I have years roughly 1 per cent, on the value of the stores

brought out any detail. the charges of the Storo Department on the value of stores and the amount of their freight to India was 1-573 per cent.

444. That is what it works out at, but out of what fund do the salaries come?-They are paid out of the revenues of the Government of India without any refer- eneu to purchases,

445. I do not think you quite understood the ques. tion I put to you. It would be possible of course for your office to be organised or to have been organised on the same basis as that of the Crown Agents by which the staff would depend on the amount of the purchases male and the percentage therefrom obtained. Suppos- ing that were suggested (it is perhaps a rather hypo thetical question now) what would be your view and

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