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18 PUBLIC RECORD OFFICE, LONDON
Fifteenth Day.
14 May 1907.
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as it has been very happily termed in Australia over British territory absolutely. If that be the case it requires no experts at all.
Mr. LLOYD GEORGE: For cost, surely?
Sir WILFRID LAURIER: If you have a company in which you would have such a man as Lord Strathcona, who will undertake it for such a sum, you will have to determine whether you are prepared to pay the sum or Wilfrid Laurier.) not.. No expert would be required there. If you found a Company on the Atlantic Ocean who would be prepared to put down their money for such a service provided they get a subsidy. Five years ago you gave a subsidy to the Cunard Company for the service between Great Britain and New York. I think it it would have been far better if it had been given to a line to Canada but it is no use going into that now.
With this amendment that I have made you havo two proposals before you; one with regard to the Atlantic service, and one with regard to the Pacific service. With regard to the Atlantic service, what we want to have is a service equal to the best now in existence in the world; that requires no expert knowledge, but it is a question of policy, shall or shall we not have it? If we want to have it we must pay for it. No company will undertake such a service without a liberal subsidy. The only question, therefore, is, will you do it, and be prepared to pay the price which is reasonable for it?
As to the second question, the Pacific service, I limit it according to the suggestion of Sir Joseph Ward, to say we are prepared to back a service as nearly equal in speed and character to the Atlantic ships as circumstances will permit. Here again, there is no necessity for experts; it is a question of policy, shall you or shall you not have such a service? That is a question for the Conference to decide and I think you should put the question.
CHAIRMAN: Do you wish it put as it stands?
Sir WILFRID LAURIER: With the amendment.
Sir WILLIAM LYNE: May I say that the wording of that resolution might be misunderstood, the words are "speed and character" as nearly as you can get them to those running across the Atlantic. It does not want such large boats. At the present moment there is a turbine boat running between Melbourne and Launceston at 21 knots, and a bont 1,000 or 2,0 tons larger than that is not a fourth the size of the boats running from here to New York, and it would do that service well and do it much cheaper.
Sir JOSEPH WARD: It says, "speed and character." It does not say size.
Sir WILLIAM LYNE: The character means as nearly as possible like those between here and New York.
Sir WILFRID LAURIER: How would you change it?
Sir WILLIAM LYNE: So that it is clearly understood that they are not ships of the size or anything like the size of those running to New York now. As long as they have the speed, and they are suitable, a ship of 5,000 or 6,000 tons would be quite sufficient.
Sir JOSEPH WARD: We have a similar steamer now running in the Vancouver service in the summer months, owned by New Zealand, the "Maheno."
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Sir WILFRID LAURIER : How would this satisfy you:
as nearly equal to the Atlantic ships"?
"Of a speed Fifteenth Day.
14 May 1907.
Sir WILLIAM LYNE: Yes, leaving out character altogether.
Sir WILFRID LAURIER: Yes, I will take out the word "character." I have no objection.
Sir WILLIAM LYNE: There is a steamer of 6,000 tons running across now, but not at that full speed.
Sir JOSEPHI WARD: Yes. One more word about this. I should be think sorry to support the idea of mixing this up with what experts may is the best course to follow, because I look upon that simply (although Mr. Lloyd George does not intend it) as having the effect of delaying this before we arrive at any conclusion at all for a considerable period. I think it is infinitely better if we make up our minds to test what is possible here on the suggestion put forth by Sir Wilfrid Laurier-make up our minds what the speed is that we are prepared to have between England and Canada and between Canada and Australia and New Zealand, and then call for tenders for it. Let us fix it as a matter of policy and give it out definitely that we are going to support a service of that kind.
Mr. LLOYD GEORGE: I have said something about experts in my observations, but that is not my proposal. My proposal is really described in the words used by Mr. Deakin in his resolution last week. I used the words concerted inquiry," and he put "systematic." I do not think it matters. We really cannot pledge ourselves now as to the best means of doing this thing. The resolution has not even been placed on the paper. I do not think it really fair. If it be regarded as a matter of immense practical moment and I think it is—, I think it would have been fair to the Imperial Government, at any rate, to let us have a copy of the resolution. We have had copies of all the resolutions about fiscal reform, but never a copy of this one practical proposal, which we could have examined. It ought to come before the Cabinet. But we saw this resolution for the first time this morning, and it is really rushing us unfairly, I must say, to ask us to pledge ourselves, not to the general proposition that it is desirable or that we will look into the matter, but to pledge ourselves to the actual route, to a 20-knot service here, a 24-knot service there, and an 18-knot service in another place. Surely that is a thing that ought to be inquired into. The difference in cost between an 18 and a 20-knot service I am told is simply prodigious. The figures given to me were almost prohibitive. Possibly, when we look into it, it may simply have been that a shipowner was trying to frighten us off it; I cannot say, but the figures were very alarming. To ask us to pledge ourselves to the very smallest detail (because that is what this means) without the slightest further talk amongst ourselves as to the best plan of doing this thing, I really do not think is quite fair to us.
Sir WILFRID LAURIER: The concrete resolution has been placed before you, but the idea has been running in this Conference all through of such an import service as we have been asking for.
Mr. LLOYD GEORGE: I agree.
Sir WILFRID LAURIER: The idea has not only been agitated, but talked about and conferred upon informally for about some three weeks. The Q q
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