PUBLIC RECORD OFFICE
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Reference :-
C.O.885
18 PUBLIC RECORD OFFICE, LONDON
ALLY WITHOUT PERMISSION OF THE BE REPRODUCED PHOTOGRAPHIC-
COPYRIGHT PHOTOGRAPH-NOT TO
Fifteenth Day. 14 May 1907.
MAIL SERVICE TO AUSTRALIA AND NEW ZEALAND riá
CANADA,
(Sir
Joseph Ward.)
148
we never contemplated doing a cargo business across Canada. We want to help the transport of passengers and mails that way, and get them to and from As far as cargo is concerned, any England as fast as possible by that route. man doing business in the Colonies can make his own arrangements. He does not want any assistance by way of subsidy. What he wants is to get some of the charges upon the tramp steamers taken off on the Suez Canal, which is quite a different thing to giving him the benefit of that shorter route available. We do not want a subsidy for cargo steamers. Canada and New Zealand, at the moment, in order to give our people an opportunity of working up trade, are giving 20,0001. a year for tramp steamers-10,000l. each. It is not a satisfactory thing from our point of view or the Canadian point of view, but we do it in order to give our people a chance of working up a trade.
Once trade develops that subsidy will be withdrawn, and the cargo steamers will have to work out their own destiny, as everywhere else, without the material assistance of subsidies.
But if we want to do a great thing for Great Britain and the outlying British countries, let us be prepared to pay the necessary money for it, and bend our efforts to bringing these countries into close touch with England, which can be done provided we are prepared to pay enough for it. If we are not prepared to pay for it, we cannot expect to do it at all.
I support the resolution of Sir Wilfrid Laurier because it is in the right direction; but I would ask him to alter it in the direction of inviting tenders, and to provide for faster speed, and let us have the assurance from the British Government that they will help us.
Sir WILFRID LAURIER: I have no objection to making some such alteration.
Mr. LLOYD GEORGE: Before altering the resolution, perhaps you will hear what I have to say as I have one or two suggestions to make.
Dr. JAMESON: Lord Elgin and gentlemen, this proposal does not directly affect us at all, but purely Australia, Canada, New Zealand, and the United Kingdom; but what does alarm one a little is Sir Joseph Ward's suggestion that unless something of the kind is done the "all red route goes and we fall back on San Francisco.
Sir JOSEPH WARD; We must, it is our only alternative.
Dr. JAMESON: Yes; these things are often done better piece-meal. I should have thought it was better for Canada to get a better service with the United Kingdoin so as to compete with the United States. Sir Wilfrid Laurier dealt with a service between the United Kingdom and Canada. Then there is no reason afterwards for the alternative that Sir Joseph Ward put forward as between San Francisco and Vancouver. If you once had a fast service to Canada, and through Canada, then it might be a question of dealing with the second proposition as to whether a fast line should go across the Pacific to Australia and New Zealand. As to whether it goes to Australia or New Zealand first, that is a further question to be argued and settled, but in the meantime you avoid that horrid possibility of abandoning the "all red route" and entering into an arrangement from San Francisco. Canada got what is suggested by Sir Wilfrid Laurier, a 24-knot service to Canada, then you begin on the other side to negotiate 15 knots, either 15, 18, or up to 20 knots, in the Pacific.
If
Sir JOSEPH WARD: Under the idea which New Zealand has, and which I am strongly impressed with myself-and nothing that I know of
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so far could change me from it-I know under the mail arrangements we want to carry out that it is a necessity that Sydney should be the terminal port for the steamers. That is right. That means steamers must wait there a week or more for the purpose of overhauling and all kinds of things, and from the point of view of an effective mail service viâ Vancouver, New Zealand must be the point first touched at on the outward route, because they have to wait so long when they get to Sydney for all the attendant work required on the steamer. So, of necessity, in any route we are considering, and any proposal, if you want to carry it out practically, you must link New Zealand as the first port outward from Vancouver; otherwise, as far as we are concerned, we have to wait for seven or eight days after the steamer has been to Sydney.
Sir WILLIAM LYNE: Could it not be done by a branch service from Fiji?
Sir JOSEPH WARD: No, that means another transhipment, and people will not stand it in these times.
Dr. JAMESON: That is just the point it must come to, practically, in plain language, between Australia and New Zealand as to which gets the service first. I should like to see that dealt with later on, so as not to prejudice the Canadian suggestion as to a fast service practically from England to Vancouver.
Mr. DEAKIN: I do not controvert what Sir Joseph Ward has said at all, but my allusion to it simply pointed to the fact that if your steamers do not carry cargo you have to give them a larger subsidy.
Mr. LLOYD GEORGE: Especially for a very fast line of steamers.
Sir WILLIAM LYNE: I think in New South Wales we transferred the subsidy from Queensland to the Vancouver service to help us, and we have refused to support Speckles, who is the owner of the American line, two or three times during the last few years. To support the Vancouver route we gave all we could to that route instead.
Sir JOSEPH WARD: We have offered to give the same amount all through the piece to Vancouver. We have for years paid the money for San Francisco, because it was the only line we could get. If we were driven into the same position we would have to do it again.
Mr. LLOYD GEORGE: Lord Elgin and gentlemen, I am very glad Sir Wilfrid Laurier has brought forward a proposal which we can examine without coming into conflict with any popular mandate and highly controversial topics like the fiscal question. I am only sorry that we did not get this in time to enable us to give real consideration to it, and to enable us also to put forward considered views before the Conference. The first I saw of this scheme was yesterday. I think I saw the resolution last night, and the resolution which is placed on the paper to-day is different in one or two material particulars. We have done our best in the very short time which has been placed at our disposal for considering such a very important business proposition, and we have made some inquiries with regard to it.
Even this discussion has shown what a very difficult problem it is, and what a many-sided problem it is. You have to consider a good many things. You have to consider the best route. As to the desirability of bringing New Pp
1 49270.
Fifteenth Day.
14 May 1907.
MAIL SERVICE
TO AUSTRALIA AND NEW
ZEALAND via CANADA. (Sir Joseph Ward.)