PUBLIC RECORD OFFICE
Reference :-
C.O. 882
9
PUBLIC RECORD OFFICE, LONDON
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12
17 August per
Located at
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MADALETIUS ROYAL COMMISSION,
1909
The Hon Sir G
J
BOWES KCMG
I was moved as a vote of censure op mư though i dok nd genommend the appointment
1
17 S. Edward O Malley I wanted to ank one other question What do the Excutiv
what functions do they and in this Col ny ¡-:tru
All Hills are read in the Executive Coun. Defore being introduod The law requires that entam regulations sleub! for passad by the Governor
fil
Yes, statutory 17.500 Surat ary"
All capital cases are considered by the Gwernor in Exerative Cautas il, dar contracts are considered and passed in Executive Council
I to say they are debate? They 17.510 That cat pasand by the Tondei Bard and approved in the
Executive Council
17.501 What is the Tender Bard The Tender Burd is a Camin.ttee of which the Receiver General in Clairman, which contains some unofficial members
17,512 People outside the Executive Council? – Y... A ten ber is submitted to them, and they submit their recommendations to the Governor in Executive Council, and he approves or disapproves.
17,13 Do you know why they are taken from ntsile? I do not know, it happoned long before I came to the Colony
17514 Do you see any reason why they should No. Habe not. 1 think the Storekeeper General and the heads of the departments are perfectly com jelent to give an opinion
17515. (Me Woodcock › Have you ever heard of another Colony where it is done?-I do not know about that.
17516. (Sir Edward ('Malley. And the Conneil deals with the dismissal of public servants and so on? -Yes
17.517 Now I mean, in the ordinary way of adminie. Iration of Government, does the Executive Concil make up its mind about anything and bring it forward in Council and stand upon its decision ?—The effect of fle Executive Council is to produce delay when there is a division of opinion, the general tendency is to aljourn the question.
17,518. You nun in the Executive Council? Yes, in the Executive Council.
17,519 You, but I mean where you want to arrive at some decision or other, does anyone come forward, the Procureur General, or the Colonial Secretary in what is called the Council of Government and say The Government is resolved on such and such a course and I am here to justify it and stand upon that course and carry it?—Yes.
17,520. Because I cannot find any trace of it. Every single thing seems to me to be thrown upon the table of the Council of Government ? A case occurred the other day in connection with the sale of the Cerné there we carried it by the official vote and one other member The Governor decided that we were to go on and we went on.
17,521-2. (Secretary.) But you had previously got a vote of the Council saying that it was to be sold P Yes; they required that they should be informed of the price
(Sir Edward O'Malley) Why? What business had they to respire anything of the sort?
(Mr. Woodrock) We do not understand what they had to do with it.
17,523. (Bir Edward O'Malley). It seems to me that the same sort of thing has gone on everywhere-they are putting their hands into matters which are Executive matters, not Legislative? That is perfectly true, and the tendency of the Council of Government is to nsarp the administrative functions of the Government in matters which, as a legislative assembly, they have toothing to do with.
17,324. I examined a witness who was called before us, one of the leading gentlemen of this Colony, and when I asked him what was the purpose of the Council of Government, he at once said: "To take part in the administration of the Government." They all seem to have that impression here; that the Council of Govern- ment is a sort of Executive body ?—No, it is a Løgialative Lody, but, as a matter of fact, they have tried to get
control over the administration and pube appointments
[Continued
PYCB
over the
17.525. Is there any word in the Constitution, as it stans, that warrants them in that belief? There is no word in the Constitution, and I can point to debates ver this question of public appointments, in which I huve Laken up the position that, whilst I do not objeví to their criticising the policy of the Government ou any matter where they consider an injustice has been done, 1 eonsnder that they are wrong in interfering with the adminstration
17,526 Quite so. Then what I want to ask you is this If the Constitution, as it stands. was firmly carried out. is there any reason why the Civil Service No, none undermined? should be demoralised or whatever
17,527 Then you put down the demoralisation and the undermining of the Civil Service as much to the way the Government has been administered us to the form of the Government itself? That is perfectly true, but a Member of Council here regards himself as a friend of the Civil Servants, bocause a large body of his constituents are Civil Servants, to a greater extent than they do in England. The consequence is, that the Civil Servanta do run to the elected members when they get into trouble, and that elected member goes to see the Governor.
17,528. Yes, but his going to see the Governor is Governor not part of the Constitution? No, but a generally receives him politely and hear what he has got to say, and it depends very much on the idiosyncracy of the particular Governor, whether he attaches more or less importance to what the elected member may RULY. It is a matter of personality. Some men may say
I thank you for all you have said, but I am going to carry out my duty," and there is no more to say.
(Mr. Woodcock.) But now the system is that a dismissed employee might get a man to go and see the Governor. It seems to me, if I may say so, it is quite beside the question which has been put to you.
17.529. (Sir Edward O'Malley.) Quite so, I want to ask you if that threat or no is moved in the Council, that the Government has taken in Executive Council a certain course and adhered to it?-Yes, but that does not stop a vote of censure.
17,530. Has any vote of censure ever been passed in this Colony ?—No, because we have got a majority with the help of the nominees,
17,531. Then, debuted P-It is debated. mind it being debated.
I do not
17,532. (Chairman.) We are trying to get at facts. and I understand from what we have been told that it
is recognised here, especially by the members of the Civil Service, that the elected member is a man who must go and carry their complaints, and that they have got a right to go to him and he recognises that also. That is what I understand P-Yen.
(Sir Edward O'Malley.) In a broad sense they go and try and get him to do certain things every representative body in the world has got the same drawback.
(Mr. Wondeork Questions are commonly asked in the House of Commons, as to whether a man was dismissed, and why he was dismissed.
(Chairman.) Yes, but this is not a constitutional Colony. I quite agree with you, it is perfectly right in the House of Commons, but is it right in a Crown Colony P
(Mr. Woodcock.) It would be impossible to avoid it when you have elective members.
(Chairman.) That is the point. That is what 1 understand Sir Edward O'Malley is trying to get st. The Colonial Secretary says it is the practice here for members of the Civil Service to go to the elective member, and if they got into trouble, to try and get them off. Is that a fact, or is it not?
17,533. (Sir Edward O'Malley.) What I am putting
to you is that that may be a sort of feeling among the clerks of the Civil Service, that they have got a friend in their member, and they can go to him and let him do it, but if the Government take up a manly footing and say: We have examimed this man, the Governor or the Colonial Secretary says this case has been considered,
17 August 1909 1
MINUTES OF EVIDENCE.
The Hon Sir G. J. BoWER, E.C.NO.
we have considered it in the Executive Council, it may and we have come to the conclusion that we dismiss There and-so, and you do it, what is the difficulty?
little fuss about it!— That is perfectly true, mity be and there is no reason why it should not be done, and I would like to see it done, but it all depends on the mdividund character of the man who may happen to be I am not speaking of any particular person,
Governor
but any Governor
17.534. Chairman i Has it become rather the practice here, that when these complaints are carried iy elected members they are listened to? Very often,
אייץ
17,335 If they were only shown the door, they would not take the trouble at all-Very often they are listened t
17.536. You said you could not remember a case, until you mentioned that one later on. Now we have been told of a case where a man left the Government service and had no claim to a pension, and by reason of the influence brought to bear by elected members. he was finally given a pension, though he was not entitled to one. Do you remember that case -I remember a case in the last Session when there was a resolution of the unofficial members carried, and where the wish of the unofficial members was submitted to the Government that a Mr. Pitrel, of the Mortgage Office, should have his pension increased by having his personal allowance, which was not pensionable. made pensionable. That has passed for what it may be worth. The Secretary of State has determined already the amount of that pension on an appeal by Mr. Pitrel himself, and there is not the slightest chance that it will be changed.
17.537. Yes, but that was a case where the elected members did try to influence the Governor to get a man something that he was not entitled to ?—Yes, as a luxdy.
17,338. (Sir Edward O'Malley.) I was told that the heads of departments are summoned before the Committee of the Council of Government when the Budget is under discussion and cross-examined and examined and asked questions about their depart- ments Yea, that was a custom that was formerly in existence here. It was then discontinued for some years, and it was re-introduced by Sir Charles Bruce some years ago. I could not give you the exact date.
17,539, It does not matter. Mr. Pitot we will take as an instance; he is member of the Council of Government P-Yes.
17,540. In he summoned as a witness before the Committee of the Council of Government P-No. What would happen in that case is this: A member like Mr. Pitot would sit in his seat, and some member would say to him, "Do you consider the ruilway efficient; do you consider the viaduct at Grand River North West safe; do you consider our rolling stock sufficient P" These are typical questions that would be put to him, and they would be put for the purpose of criticising the Government Estimates.
17,541. It is a peculiar proceeding. I never heard of the heads of departments being Cross-CX- amined. The Colonial Secretary is there P-Yes, he answers, in practice, for everything.
17542. If he answers in practice for everything, in this an appeal against him?-Practically it comes to
that
L
17,543. (Mr. Woodcook.) In your answers to the A. set of questions you say: "I am opposed to a loan to the planters; but proposals are likely to be made for the establishment of either an agricultural bank or a land mortgage bank. These proposals raise questions that cannot be answered in a paragraph. I would prefer to see the proposals in some practical shape before criticising them. But I may say NOW that there are difficulties, both legal and financial, that, up to the present, I do not see my way to With regard to that last sentence, could you tell us what are some of the legal dificultios, and some of the financial difficulties that yon refer to P-We will take the legal first.
“overcome."
17,544. If you please?-Of course the whole thing turns on the question of security, and the agricultural
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bank must have security against which its advances should be made Article 520 of the Civil Code, which I simply translate, says: "The crops held by ruota and fruits of treas not yet eut are equally immovable property fixed to the anil. When the erop is cut and the fruit is detached, although not taken away. then they are movables." Now there is a further article, Article 1188, in the Civil Code, which says. that when the security of the mortgage creditor is lessened in any way, he has a right to claim payment. so that if you detach the crop from the soil, by law, the mortgage creditor has a right to come in and say. 1 want payment." Now these are practical diff- culties in the way of separating the crop from the Buil, so far as the existing mortgages are concerned
17,545. May 1 deal with that under two heads Supposing it were proposed to lend money by a loun board on the land on a first mortgage-supposing that were the only suggestion-Then that could be done if the other mortgage creditors got out of the way.
17,546. They would not be affected by any of the difficulties that are raised now? Not at all.
17,547. The next thing is this, supposing it were proposed that money should be lent on crops and crops only, the point that you raise is that the law would have to be altered Yes, and it could only apply to prospective cases, not to retrospective.
17,548. Then supposing it were suggested to lend money on personal security, none of that matter would affect the question ?-Not at all, but I do not think the bank would lend on personal security.
17,549. That, of course, is another matter ? Yes, 17,550. Are those the only legal difficulties that you want to put before us ?—Yes.
the financial 17,551. What do you suggest are difficulties which seem to you insurmountable ?—The first difficulty is the question of where the money would come from. If it was left to private enterprise. I do not see any chances of getting the money. If it is to be done by the Government, I see great objections to the Government being involved in that.
17,552. Why?—I do not think Government officers are competent to do the work that bankers do. I am not speaking now of such loans as we have made, I am speaking of banking business.
17,553. Supposing that the objects of such a bank were limited in such a way as not to bring it into competition with any of the existing banks, what then? For example, supposing it was proposed to lend money on the personal security formed of small planters and others who would jointly and severally be liable to the bank for the repayment of those loans ?-There, again, my difficulty arises on the question of security. What security would those men give? As a matter of fact the money lent by the estates is simply lent on what The are practically IO.U's or promissory notes. legal expenses that are involved in taking security are very great, and not only that, but the legal expenses that are involved in selling up your debtor are very great.
That makes the security on both sides of the Bocount very uncertain.
17,554. I see you would object to the Government lending on personal security ?—Yes.
17,355. However good the personal security might be P-Yes, because there is nothing behind it. I object to accommodation bills in any shape or form.
17,556. I notice that in your evidence you say there is, at present, a vacancy of an inspector of police in the Island PYen.
17,557. That has not been filled up yet?—No, a despatch has gone home to the Secretary of State suggesting that an appointment should be made of some expert.
17,558. Of an Englishman who has had police experience P-Yen.
17,559. That has actually gone P-Yes, it has 17,560. And you approve of that being done ?— Yes, certainly.
17,361. In your view would not it be well for the police force to be largely manned by men of experience from the English police force P-I consider it would be very desirable to take experts from the Metropolitan Police, the Irish Constabularly, or the Indian Police,
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