PUBLIC RECORD
OFFICE
Reference :-
TPLLC.O. 882
9ALLY WITHOUT PERMISSION OF THE
BE REPRODUCED PHOTOGRAPHIC- COPYRIGHT PHOTOGRAPH-NOT TO
PUBLIC RECORD OFFICE, LONDON
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17 August 1999)
MAKSUHTUS, ROYAL COMMISSION, 1902) -
The Hon Sir G J BoWER. KCMG
1:40 H has that power now * not want to eten ise at to say
17 1
Yes, but do
3 Le'W
with the
is your Chairman What
unetheial member be having an Ex-sutive Corneil two elective members
17.462 Is there any necessity to have any at all, It think it is ar there any advantage in that? advantage in this way, that the officuls, even people hke myself who have been a long time in the Colony. are not in touch with the ordinary civil life of the place, and we may give lad advice without the intention of doing so, through ignorance and through want of knowledge of the susceptibilities involved, and it is an advantage to the Governor to have two men who are acquainted with the civil life of the place, who are lis udvisers, and he can take their advice or not as he Ich
I prefer two nominees instead of
17.46 36 Woodrock › You can, of course, get that information by an intelligent sounding of the com mercial community or French community or the Ecclesiastical community --It is given in
If a mun is responsible way in the Executive Council placed in a position where he is responsible, the rest is
kely to degenerate into what I may cali gossip.
A
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17,464 (Chairman.). Is there any more need to have any more members of the unofficial members of the Council in Mauritius than, way, in any of the other Eastern Colonies?—The only reason that I would urge in favour of Mauritina is this here we are dealing with people to whom the Governor comes as a stranger; I may say that the ideas and habita and everything connected with the place are, as a rule, quite strange to an Englishman, and, unintentionally, he may hurt feelings which he has no desire to hurt.
17.465. Are you regarding Mauritius as an English a French Colony P-It is an English Colony or hi Colony, but it is inhabited largely by French people.
17,466 It has been an English Colony for 100 years, that is longer than it has ever been a French Colony?— Yes, but it is governed by French laws and has French customa I do not want to interfere with those customs, what I want to do in. where we have to deal with strangers in ruce, we have to ascertain their habits and customs, and give them the largest latitude in that respect, so long as we get what we consider essentials.
17.467. You think there are special reasons in Mauritius why there should be unofficial members of the Executive Council. As I have explained, I myself, and most people who come here from England, find ourselves in what in practically a foreign country, with people who have ideas quite different from our own on every subject almost, and it takes us a long time to It is an advantage to have two understand them. respectable men of standing who can warn the Governor when he is running against a pièce of sentiment which he may not wish to offend, and which may not be material to his object at all.
17,468 (Mr. Woodcock.) I think we understand. You are in favour of it for that reason anyhow P-Yes. 17,469. Following that up, would not that end be attained by having one, assuming you are going to love these unofficial nominated members of the Execu tive at all? That end would be sufficiently attained by having one of the French community ?—I would prefer two for this reason: here the people are grouped together in certain interests, and I prefer to have a representative of what I call each interest.
17,470. (Chairman.) Would you consider Dr. Elwarda represented the feelings of any particular part of the community here, and was a good interpreter for the English Members of the Council, to tell them what the feelings of the French community are?—No, he represents the coloured population.
17.471 Was not he a member of the Executive Council? -He,wan. He was put on as a member for the coloured population, and to a considerable extent he did represent the coloured population.
17.472. Then I judge from that you mean there are, aleast, three sets of people in the community-the Frouch element, the coloured element, and the Indian
Continued
element they are all quite different and apart from each other? Yes. quite distinct
17,473. Then there ought to be three representatives on the Executive Council, ought there not, if they are all to be represented? So far as that point is concerned, there is no one among the Indian Clement who would really represent Indian interests.
on the
17,474 Why is not this difficulty. if it is a diffi- culty, met by their having representatives Legislative Council, why should they be in the Executive Council Can they not, in the Legislative Council, give you all the information which you require !--They can. at what I want to get at is that the Governor should be warned before he takes a step which would arouse So long as sentiment as soon as it became public matters are discussed in camera you do not raise a storm of indignation based on sentiment, you get warning in time.
17.475. Just one other question with regard to the Constitution. If the present Constitution remains, do you think it is a good or a bad thing that Government officers should have a vote? The Government officers in the Council?
17,476 No. the Government officers who vote for an elected member, who have the franchise— That cute in two ways. The effect of giving the franchise
17,477. No, I ask you whether you think it is a good thing or not that Government officers should have a right to vote for elected members-I think 1 would sooner that they did not have it.
17,478. Will you say why - Because the tendency under the existing Constitution-I am speaking of the existing Constitution-is to make the members the advocates for the claims and wishes of members of the Civil Service. The clerks in the offices and the various members of the Civil Service are in very close touch with the elective members; they look to them to push their claims, to protect them when they get into trouble, and generally to advance their interests, and the result is that the Governor is frequently being pressed. For instance, he may dismiss a Civil Servant for stealing, and at once an elected member comes to him and says that this is a most deserving man and he has got a large family and there are any number of reasons why he should not be dismissed.
17.479. You are able to give us instances of this? Oh, yes, the thing has happened to me. I have frequently, when I have been administering the Govern ment, had Sir William Newton come to me- I do not remember the case, but I can speak to it as an actual fact that Sir William Newton has come to me and urged the cases of men which he said I ought to consider.
17,480. When you thought you ought not to con- sider them---
17,481. (Mr. Woodcock.) These people surely ought to be represented; you would not disfranchise a whole class like that, but I put it to you whether you would be in favour of giving them a member, so that they should not spread their influence over the whole of the elected members, but should have a voice in being allowed to elect their own member P-Under the Constitution I propose that would be cut out—the evil that I speak of.
17.482. I know it would, but assuming now that we do not adopt your principle P--The effect of the existing Constitution is to destroy the discipline of the Civil Service.
17,483. I do not think you follow me. Perhaps it is my fault.
Would you be in favour of giving the officials a vote, as they have a vote now-allow them to continue to exercise the franchise, but giving them their own member, so that they abould have a voice through their own member of the Council?-Such a proposal is quite new to me. I have never really considered how it would work out in practice.
17.484. You are not in a position to offer an opinion --The effect, I think, would be to make a sort of trades union amongst the officials.
17,485. (Chairman.) You think that the present Constitution, as it stands to-day, has destroyed the discipline of the Civil Service P-The working of it.
17 August 1909 |
MINUTES OF EVIDENCE.
The Hon. Sir G. J. BOWER, K.C M.G
17.486 I wanted to ask you, you remember very weil Mr Lyttelton's Despatch-I am not quite sure that I did not ask you this question before? Yes. I remember the Despatch, it was September 1904. I think.
17,487 Was that Despatch sent to all the Heads of the Departments-I was not in the Colony when it arrived, and I do not know whether it was sent out.
17,488. You do not know whether it was sent out ? 1 ought to have looked it up, but I do not know, as I was absent on long leave.
17.489. I would just like to ask you about the Royal College. Do you see any reason why the work of the Rector of the Royal College and the Director of Public Instruction should not be carried out by the The Rector of same man, with a secretary of course? the Royal College, until quite recently, gave one hour's tuition in the school; now he gives two. Suppose he did not give any it cannot make much difference whether he gives one hour or two or none; could not be then carry on his work as Rector, which is merely apparently the supervision of the masters in the Royal College, and also. with the assistance of a secretary, do any work that is required of the Director of Public Instruc ton-Speaking without a complete knowledge of the details. I think he could, but then I think the Education Office in that case ought to be moved to Curepipe.
17.490. Do you know any reason why the number of masters at the Royal College should not be reduced, having regard to the number of pupils ?-I have urged that very frequently, that the number of masters should be reduced. I think that that there is an excess of masters in proportion to the number of pupile.
17,491. Have you noticed at all that there is a master who is 67 years old P-Yes.
17.492. And that there are two, I think, 66 years old, and several others over 60 P—I cannot say their exact ages from memory, but at all events there are two men, Mr. Chaperon and Mr. L'Etang, who are very old men.
17,493. Suppose that there are five who are over 60, and perhaps seven who are over 57, is there any reason why these men should not be pensioned P-None at all.
17.494. (Mr. Woodcock.) You have power to do so; the Government has power to do so P-Yes, we have power under the law to do so after they are 60 years of age.
17,495, (Chairman) Therefore you have got an opportunity there of making an immediate reduction in the establishment. -Yes.
17,496. Has not that question come before the Executive, as to whether the number of masters at the Royal College, and even at the College schools, is not very much larger than necessary, and far far larger than you will find in any other Colony P-My proposal 1 the Executive was to suppress one of the College schoola; I auggested the suppression of the Curepipe School, and, of course, it would have involved the retirement of certain masters, because we would have reduced the staff in consequence of the suppression of the school. It would have had that result. The question was not mentioned in that shape; it was mentioned in the shape of the suppression of a school.
the
17.497. Yes, but without going so far as to suppress a school, here is something which can be dealt with instantly, and that is to reduce the number of masters at the Royal College; the men are over agei pupils are very few; the masters are very numerous; why should not that have been done? Is there any reason why it should not be done now ?--I do not know of any at present.
17,498. Can you tell us, have you ever had anything to do with the forests? When a department is placed under board, does the Government in a mesauro wash their hands of the future proceedings of the department P-What happens in connection with the Forests Board is this. They practically have the control over the nomination, to the appointments. All matters relating to forests of any importance are referred to the Forest Board. They give their advice, And I have never known a case, at least I cannot
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[Continued.
remember one, in which the Governor has rejected that advice.
17,499. Then practically what I am suggesting now is the fact, that, having appointed a board, the Govern. ment then washes its hands of the further proceedings of that department P-Under law they are merely an advisory board; in practice I have never known their advice to be rejected.
17,500. Then it is perfectly useless to ask you anything about the result of doing this, because if the Government accepts the position that the board is in authority and the Government has no longer any control, that explains the whole situation, of course I mean, we have visited only one of the forests, where we see thousands of dead and dying trees lying all over the place, which the professional man in charge of the foreste says he has no authority to move; he cannot cut them down, he cannot sell them; he cannot do anything with them at all; he is hindered at every turn by the board, and apparently there the matter staude P-Yes, that is quite true; that is the Coutanceau Forest. What has happened is this: The Kanaka Forest was exploited and the dead and dying treea were cut down. The Forest Board complained that too liberal an interpretation was given to the expression "dead and dying trees" and the forest was thinned unnecessarily.
17,501. (Mr. Woodcock.) Just to interrupt you there, how could they, if they were not experts, express any opinion of that sort -They are not experts and their opinion was of no more value than mine or any other person who is not acquainted with forests. Some of these are interested in the Savanne District and they considered that the Coutanceau Forest was the source of all the water supply of the Savanne District, so they objected to any further thinning in case the water supply of the Savanne District should be diminished at the source. That is the whole story. There is this controversy going on. Personally, I am in favour of acting on the advice of Mr. Koenig, who is certainly a qualified officer, and Mr. Gleadow, who came from India to deal with this question of the forests.
17,502. Would you do away with the Forest Board if you had your way ?-Yes, I would.
17,503. (Sir Edward O'Malley) You say that the present system of the Government has destroyed the discipline of the Civil Service. That is a very broad statement to make!-Perhaps the word "destroyed " is too strong; perhape undermined would be better.
17,504. But you have not any instance at present to quote of people who have put unfair pressure upon the Government through the medium of the elected member --The debates of Council show numbers of
CaBea
17,505. Yes, but the debates of Council are very numerous ?—I would have to look them up to cite instances; but, as a matter of fact, I have had people come to my office and they have asked me to inter vene in the matter of the dismissal of a Government Borrant.
17,506. Yes, but those are not specimens. I have naked every witness who has said that the present system has had this or that effect to give me an instance, and I am always met in the same way: “I "cannot give you instances at present; I must look them up." If you could give one or two which one could study for oneself, it would be really very important, because this requires evidence of matters of fact, and a mere broad statement like that carries no weight unless you can refer to something in the nature of a case? As it happens now I can give you a case. In the year 1904. I think, an appointment was made to the post of Substitute Procureur-General. Mr. Koenig waÐ appointed, who was then second Assistant Colonial Secretary, and the claims of Mr. Serret, who repre- sented the coloured population, were very strongly advocated in Council by the members. The Secretary of State decided to appoint Mr. Koenig. I will, however, look up other cases and send them to the Secretary, Mr. Harding.
17,507. (Mr Woodcock.) But what I do not under. stand is why these matters should be discussed in the