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PUBLIC RECORD OFFICE

Reference :-

TLC.O. 882

hududinim

9ALLY WITHOUT PERMISSION OF THE

PUBLIC RECORD OFFICE, LONDON

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17 August 190

MATRITIT - ROYAL COMMISSIox, 1909.

The 45 ASTELME

There sheghỉ be expuerta to julge of the value of the kan land those exjorts should is entirely indepen·lent of the Lout Board -—Yes, a man and a good planter, 1 think should be appouted to a fixed post by the Setary of State, and I say muse I have been is wolf six years under my uncle Sir Celicouart Antelme as expert and inspector of both the Crecht Foncier the Agricultural Company of Mauritius, Ltd., and I have been able to see sometimes that it was not always very easy to give satisfaction to everyone, und I have made enemies at that time for having always sand and written what was my opinion in certain cases, alties, in 1892. I remember only one extimation made by experts, that is the case of La Henrietta anl K. umon

These estimates are exaggerated.

17.419 They were made by the Loan Bourd ? By I think that you two experts for the Loun Bourd must have here a man knowing the place well, and kuwing well the value of the lands, the crop, and the ben aml not always inclined to give to the estaten the value which they have not the same value that they had in years past when sugars were at prices of Rs. 10 nd Rs 12 an an average.

17.120 Yon mean that those two estates. La Hen- reetta and Reunion, were scandalously over estimated a- to value and that there was a Government loan made

them-Yes

17,421 On that estimate? I do not know if a lan has been made on that estimate, but there wil failure.

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17.42. The Government had to take them ?—Yes. the Government had to take them, and some of the estimations have been bal.

17.423. Can you say who it was made that estimate? 1 do not remember There is another thing I want I have not told you publicly. tall your attention to. because 1 am of opinion that it is our duty to prevent the giving of importance to that movement. There is 4 sort of movement amongst the Indian population I do not know what will that will, perhaps, he had leppen, because they are going round everywhere to every tuan asking them what is the reut they pay and so on. in order to drive them to the magistrate and to I think that it is a necessity have them as clectors. to oblige the elector to know either English or French. 1 was and I will tell you what happened to myself. the candidate for Black River, and on the day of the election it was very dark in the Chamber, the rain was very heavy and the magistrate had to have candles Two Indians came who In order to light the place. were nominees of Mr Pitot, and they went into the little box. I was standing in the first bench. They took the paper and there was written on it Antelme" and the other name was "Pitot." They went to the magistrate, they took that paper and they went to put the vote into the ballot-bor. They put the paper like thes, upside down. They had been told that they had to put their cross on the second place. They went into the box, they put the paper like this, upside down. and put their cross like this here, just in front of my name, and then. to be sure, they put the paper like this to the canlle. (Indicating.) I was standing a short way away, and my cousin was near me. uulged me to call my attention to it. They both of them had done the same thing. They had absolutely meant to vote for Mr. Pitot and they had put the paper upside down. Nearly more than three-quarters of the Indiana are unable to understand what the names are which are written down.

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17,424. You mean that more than three-fourths of those that are qualified an electors are unable to read-You. I think that is a great danger.

17,425. (Mr. Woodcock.) It appears to me that the law is sufficient if it is properly administered ?—It in said that they are authorised to make a declaration in their own language. That is a great danger.

Continued

17.426 You will say they should do it in English or French? Yes. I think

17.427 You think that there is danger from this Yes. I think that if matters are allowed movement?

to go as they are now, in two or three years we shall be submerged

17 428. (Str Elward O'Malley Can you suggest any way in which the interests of the Indians could

will not say represented, but protected in the Government?—They are protected now.

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17.49 By the Protector or Imigrants - Yes. 17. You think that is sufficient --Quite suffi- cient, and all of us would protect the Indians.

17,431 But I mean some public organ for pro- tection he does require, if he cannot get it elsewhere People want to say he is to have it by representation, but if you take away his representation altogether, you want some other means by which he should be pro nominated member in Mr tected? They have a Nall-tamby He is supposed to be the representative of the Indians.

17,432. (Chairman) He is a Christian - Yes, you can have any one as a nominated member.

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17.433. fe cannot represent them if he is Christian; he is the luat man to represent them if You see he has deliberately left he is a Christian. them? Yes.

17,434. Yet they would be much better represented man of their by a white man than they would be by a own caste I should like to add, here you have many If am in Madras I do not like a native of cantes. Madras, and if I um in Bombay I do not like a native of Bombay.

17,435. (Sir Edward O'Malley ) I am speaking now, not exactly of what they like, but what would be best for them and most effective as a real protector?— What I think best for them is to leave them to their lands; to their work, and to be ourselves their pro- tectors. We have always been their protectors.

17.436. Your object, as a planter, is to obtain all your labour as cheaply as you can ?—Yes.

17.437. Their object in coming here and in serving you is to obtain the best wages and the most comfort Well, it may be that there will be a that they can. conflict sometimes between what you think is fair and what they think is just. How are you to have sogieone to represent them or to put forward their case ?-There is the Protector of Immigrants generally for that case, but I think that it is very very rare to see a man who is not satisfied.

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17.438. (Chairman.) May I ask you one further question? I understand you that you mean the Indians in Mauritius want to be represented in the Council. understand that you say there are a number of people going about in the country telling them that they ought to be represented ?—Yes.

17,439. That is quite a different thing P-Yes, it in not a movement of the Indians, it is a movement of the people who wish to arrive at power through the Indians. Mr. Manilal is the head of the movement. He is going all about the country exciting the people against their masters. It has been spoken here about the cane weighing machines. I do not say that the weight is correct at the stations; I do not say that because at these stations canes are bought by Indians.

17,440. At the railway stations P-Yes, they buy It is the canes in order to re-sell them in quantities.

As far there that sometimes the Indiana are cheated.

as my knowledge goes, I have never seen a property where the Indian was cheated by the estate. At the railway station, yea, but never on the estates.

17,441. The weighing machines at the railway stations belong to the Government, do they not P-No, there is only one belonging to the Government.

17.442. Who do they belong to P-To the Indians; to the men who buy the canes.

The witness withdrew.

MINUTES OF EVIDENCE.

17 Agust 1909

Sir G J

BWER, K.C.M.

17.443

(23.)

The Hon. Sir GRAHAM JOHN BOWER, KCMG., re-called.

Chairman) 1 should like to ask you whether, in your opinion. the circumstances of the Colony would justify raising a loan to make advances planters I think not. "May I give my reasons?

17.444 Yes? It depends, of course, on what you mean by "advances to planters.

17.445 Surely, there can be no question about what I mean by saying "advances to planters "P-1 mean, if you mean for the factories.

17,496. I do not mean for anything I mean 1 simply ask you, would the advances to planters. circumstances of the Colony justify Government raising a loan in order to make advances to planters in any form of any kind?-I do not think so.

17.447. Then I need not ask you whether the possible gain to the Colony would justify that increased responsibility, because you think that no laun should mude -I would like to give my reasons if I may. 17.448. If you think there is no justification?-1 have special reasons.

17,449. If you have special reasons, tell us what they are P-In the first place, as regards faisance valoir they do not want the money, and the circumstances of the Colony

17,450. (Mr. Woodcock.) I do not think you need trouble yourself about the faisance valoir at all P- Then, as regards machinery, I say that centralisation is going on the inefficient factories are being pulled down. If you were to give loan to planters now, the effect would be to put a stop to that pulling down of the inefficient factories and the centralisation which is going on among the inefficient factories. Moreover, the worst of it is that those inefficient factories are the most heavily indebted, and the only effect would be to increase the debt on these already indebted factories and bring about, in future times, a worse position than we have got at present, whilst delaying centralisation. On the other hand, the liquid and efficient factories do not want a loan.

17.451. (Chairman.) I am not supposing that if the Government was prepared to make a loan to planters, I that it would make it recklessly to the first comer. am supposing that if the Government were to make up its mind that it is for the benefit of the Colony to land money to any planters, they would choose with the greatest care and the utmost discretion the people to whom they lent the money and the purposes for which it was lent, and, therefore, I cannot suppose that the authority which would have the lending of the money would give it to those factories which are heavily indebted and which ought not to be supported at all. I should like to ask hut ought to be allowed to go. you whether there is any present need for the further extension of the railway in your opinion --There might be some light branth lines in the Flacq and Pamplemousses Districts. There was a scheme drawn up in 1903 for extending the railway in the Flacq and Pamplemousse Districts, which was given up for want of funds. That would help the small planters.

17,452. Do you think it is necessary for the present circumstances ?—No, I think that sooner or later it will be done by private enterprise. It is not absolutely necessary; it will be done by private enterprise when possible.

17.453. What do you think about the present Constitution; does it work well -I think that under the existing Constitution the Governor, so far as not speaking_of_any Anance is concerned-1 am particular Governor, I am taking Governor X., Y., or Z-has ample power in regard to finance, and that can carry almost any legislation he practically he wishes, because it usually happens that the members are so divided that he can get someone to vote with him, without even soliciting their votes in any way. But that is not my difficulty. The difficulty is this. About 20 per cent. of the electorate-I am speaking in round numbers-are Indians. If you were to take the number of Indians in the Colony who have the right to

Contiuned

Further examined in private).

89

be registered, that number would be greatly incrausert. Now 1 and the tendency is to increase that number foresee in the future-it is not a danger to-day-that persons will appeal to the Indian population. They have already begun, but the evil will spread in the future, and unscrupulous persons will make false representations, and there will be agitation, and 1 consider that a danger for the future. Practically. both parties in the country-I am speaking of the Créoles -recognise this danger. One party would wish to return to the old Constitution, the other would wish the educational qualification established, which would practically confine the vote to the Créole population, and cut out the Indians altogether. I object to both these proposals. To place the Créole population in power over the Indians would be to place a race which is opposed in manners, religion, social custom, and material interests, to control people differing from them in all these respects, Similarly, 1 object to the nominee Council, although I have very little experience of what happened when the nominee Council was in force. 1 was here, but only for a short time, as a sailor, but I know from persons who have been there, that the people complained that there was a ring formed round the Governor, that he only saw a few people, and that he never really got into touch with the people. Now I prefer a system of secondary representation which has neither of those faults, which did not require an appeal to the Indians by candidatos or formed a ring round the Governor. I am speaking The only of any Governor, not any particular one. way that I see to get that is firstly by decentralising the Government, and that is what my Minute No. 2. Inhabited House Tax, was intended to lead up to, to give the district boards taxing powers and to devolting upon them as much local government as possible. including sanitary works, water works, and roads, and so forth. Then, to make those district boards effective, partly elective and partly nominee, as the Council is at present, and finally to group the district boards into electoral groups, and also to take certain representative bodies, such as the Town Council of Port Louis, perhape the Chamber of Agriculture and the Chamber of Commerce, and allow them to elect by secondary election the members, who would not be nominated by the Government, but who would owe their origin to another source, still keeping the nominee system for the Governor.

17,454. (Sir Edward O'Malley.) Then there would be three classes-representatives, nominees and repre sentative of electoral institutions P-There would be the official class, as we have now at present; the unofficial nominees, as we have at present, and members owing their origin to an indirect secondary election produced by the district boarda and the town council, and perhaps the Chamber of Commerce and the Chamber of Agriculture.

17,455. And, besides that, representative members? -No, my object is to get rid of the direct appeal to the electorato. I see a danger in that.

17,456, (Mr. Woodcock.) Perhaps, whilst we are on that what would you say, touching the reduction in the number of the unofficial nominated members in the Legislative Council P-We can do that under the present Constitution. The present Constitution com. pels us to have not less than three unofficial nominees. We have five, therefore we can reduce by two.

17,457, I am aware of that. Do you think it ought I think the Governor to be dune ?-Not at present.

has ample power under the existing system. My objection is not to the powers of the Governor; they are sufficient; he has always got that in reserve.

17,458. I mean, do you think he ought to exercise that power in that direction P-Not unless ooossion arose in case of direct conflict with the Legislature.

17,439. You are satisfied with the present position on that P-Tee, on that point, except in cases of direct conflict.