PUBLIC RECORD OFFICE
Reference :-
TLC.O. 882
9 PUBLIC RECORD OFFICE, LONDON
ALLY WITHOUT PERMISSION OF THE BE REPRODUCED PHOTOGRAPHIC- COPYRIGHT PHOTOGRAPH-NOT TO
$1
17 August 1949
NAL INTUS ROYAL COMMISStas, 190gi
The H 6 ANTEME
17257 Arol then you have to pay to the bank the whide of the money - They got my sugar, they had
dd my sugar
17 28 They had had your sugar, they had sold it. at the lank had your pipers signed by you and the colleurs de fonds rendering you lille for the whole of The advances and for alvanes which were to be make and which had not yet been made Yes they had leven. made perhaps to the bailleurs de fonels
17289 You but not to you, yon had not hail it — I had had all of it
17.290 I want to get this perfectly elgar Therefore, you found yourself and to pay to the lank more y than the money which you had had from the Fullers de fonds? - You
17.29 You had signed these papers for that portar amount You
was the amount which the 17.292 That amount Colleur de fonds had undertaken to let you have together Yea, from time to time when I wanted it 17,293 You had only had part of it ?—Yes, I had hal part of it
17,294 But yem found yourself bound to pay to the
Tank the whole of it i
Y+H.
172295 Have you only had part of it ? —Yes.
what the 17.296 (Chairman) Can you tell us comount was for which you had given your signature ? - My signature was given for Rs 115,000 to the Caninercial Bank and Rs 35,000 to the Mauritiue Bank
17 297 Now what was the sum which you actually 1 veived?--You gave your signature for Rs 115.000 and Rs 35,008), which makes Rs. 150,000, and you may How much did you receive? you did not receive it all.
I received about nearly Rs. 110,000 They had paid for me, because I gave cheques on them. nearly R- 119,000 for the estate.
17.298 Ha. 119,000 had actually been received for the state, leaving about Rs. 40,000, which you had never touched? Yes, about that, which I have never tuche
17.299 Very well. Then when it came to settling, you had to pay Rs. 150,000 to the banks?—Yes.
17,300. And, in the meantime, all your sugar had gone into the hands of the bailleurs de fonds, they had sold it, and they had made use of the money which they received to pay their own debts instead of crediting you with that money? Yes.
17,301 Now, besides that, I understand you to say there were a number of merchanta' debta for the supply of rice and so forth?--Yea.
17,302. Now in what way were you liable for those; had you also given your signature for them?—No, but the accounts had been incurred in connection with the Cutister.
17303. (Mr. Woodcock.) That is. the bailleur de fonds ought to have paid them? -Yea.
17,304. (Chairman.) He ordered the things for the Stanley Estate ?--Yes, they take for the Stanley Sugar Estate and they send to me.
17.305. Quite so. to-About Rs. 35,000,
Those were debts practi- 17,308. Rs 35,000 more. cally for the supply of rice and other things for the estate, and those also you had to pay for ?—Yes.
Now how much do those come
17.397. (Sir Edward ('Malley.) Were those part of the expenses which the hailleur de fonds undertook to provide for when you pledged your crop to him- when you made your contract with him ? As to those outside estate expenses which you were subsequently called upon to pay, were those part of the expenses which the bailleur de fonds had promised to provide for when be made his contract with you for the faisance valoir-Every month I gave to the bailleur de fonda an estimate of the sum that I should require for that anth for the payment of wages and all other expenses on the estate and he accepted my estimate and 1 expected him to pay it, but I was not aware whether he actually paid the money or not, and also for all the supplies of rice and other things which were required by the estate, in the same way I gave a signed paper for and expected the bailleur de fonds to pay for them, but still I did not know whether he had paid for them or
"Contrayed
The only thing they are hand to give us muly money for in the wagon of our kalsaurers.
17,30s of 'haremman - You say that you signed in con- junction with the balleur de fonds a paper for a sum fter that was larger than the sun which you merived Now why did you do that if you only waited Rs 11 No, I have not signed all the papers. 1 have signed a certam quantity of papers to give to the Mauritius Commercial Bank, for him to go there and to tell the director. I want so much for the Mon Désert* estate and I want for the Stanley Estate Ra 11 The bailleur de fonds goes to the bank and tells the Mauritius Commercial Bank. I want. For the Stanley Estate. Rs. 100,000 and he gives to the lank the estimate, and then the bank do not give the whole amount of that money, it only gives, perhaps, one-third of that amount, but, if you fail, you have to pay the sum that you have provided for, because the bailleur de de fonds has taken all the sum, all the sum that has been put down for Stanley at the lank has been taken from Stanley to pay for Mon Désert They put all the business in the same basket
17.309 Quite so, but when you my that the bank does not give all that he asks for, you mean that the bailleur de fonds finds part of the money and the bank fins part of the money -No, he has taken What I have paid to all the money from the Bank. the Mauritius Commercial bank he has taken from the Mauritius Commercial Bank Rs. 115,000 for the Stanley Estate, but that money has been for the whole estates If he is embarrassed he pays with that money, and when he has failed I have to pay to the lanks RH 115,9.
17,310, That Rs 15,000 of the total amount that he has borrowed is for the Stanley Estate? -Yes.
17,311. And you signed for that sum with him?— Yes
17312. And then before he gave you the Rs. 115,000 he failed, and you were called upon to make good your signature, and to pay the whole of the amount, though He had used the money to you had not received it. pay the other estates and his own debts ?—Yes, aud all the bailleurs de fouds in the place do the same You make thing. There is a sort of paper like this
a bill on that, a bill for Rs 25,000. This is signed by the owner and endorsed by the hailleur de fonds, who very often do not possess anything, the guarantee being the estate for the bank.
17,313 (Mr Woodrock.) Will you stop there for a moment Is that bill drawn for the whole of the amount that you think you will want for your ent recoupe? Yes.
17,314. The whole of your estimate P-Yes, you aak for the whole of your estimate, and when the bailleur de fonds wants mouey he takes money from the bank on bills like that. You sign a bill and he endorses it. That in the way they proceed.
17,315. (Chairman.) The part of your story which Brema difficult to explain, unless there is something criminal about the arrangement, is that your sugar should have been taken by the bailleur de fonds and Bold, and that he devoted the proceeds of the sugar to his own purposes?—Not to his own purposes; to pay the last debte, the debts of last year.†
17,316. (Mr. Woodcock.) He mixes it up with his general funds -Yes. There is surely a sort of what you call criminal act there, but there are always debts ; they never take a new year without having a year's debts behind.
17,317. (Chairman.) Do you mean dobta from the estate or debts of their own? You mean the debt from the estate? You mean, that when you began and told the bailleur de fonds," Now for this year here is my budget; I shall want Rs. 115,000"; that when you are making that arrangement with him you still owe money on the budget of the previous year P-No, I am supposed to have done with it.
*Note by Mr. Antelme:-" Mou Désert" la given na an example sol was nor of Antelme's firm.
Note by Mr. Antelmu "Not exactly year's debt behind, but generally mine of the tailleurs de fonds have "debts behind, which they pay with the new credit,"
17 August 1909]
MINUTES OF EVIDENCE.
The Hon. G ANTELME
17.318. Then what is the debt? You mean the bailleur de fonds still has not paid his debt ?—Yes.
17.319. His debt to the bunk-Not to the lauk. because if he was owing money to the bank he would not have money this year to pay the clierographic
17,320 To the tradespeople?—Yes, to the mer bunta.
17321 (Sir Edward O'Malley)) He may be at the time a bankrupt?—Yes; I was absolutely ruined with my family, and I did not know the position of my consin. I was working with him for 25 years, and the position of Leopold Antelme and Regnard was exactly the same; they had had a large quantity of sugar estates to provide for, and they had no money; they had a small quantity of money from the banks, and when they had a short crop they had no money. This particular year. 1907, the crop had been very short The crop was estimated at a certain value, they had not got that amount of sugar: through that failure they had no money. That was the reason why both suspended their payments.
17,322. And their contract with you as bailleurs de fonds was for the faisance valoir for the year 1907 ?—Yes, exactly. The faisance valoir begins here on the 1st April. The bailleurs de fond took money from the banks. They had perhaps 30 per cent. of the money they want for all their business, because take, for instance, the firm of Mr. Ducray. Mr. Ducray has perhaps Rs. 8,000,000 to give to angar estates, in order to supply the expenses. I only give you figures approximately; I am not sure of them. I cannot give the exact figure; 1 am only giving a rough estimate. because Mr. Ducray has so many estates which took so much money, and they had only from the bank a certain amount of money for making advances to the different estates.
17,323. (Chairman.) You want to say he asked the bank for Rs. 8,000,000 and he only, got 30 per cent. of that ?—Yes; I only give you an example of the pro reeding of the affairs roughly. He took money, and he only paid for April, May, June and July the wages, the day labourers and the debts that must be paid. and 1 will give you some figures. Here are some debts that were owed to the ironmongery, Quincailleries: I have only taken three merchants in town. On the 31st July 1908 there was owed to Quincailleries Rs. 102,000 by the bailleurs de fonds.
17,324 (Mr. Woodcock.) By Antelme's F-No, by the bailleurs de fonda. The debts due by the bailleur de fonds to Quincailleries on the 31st July 1908 were Rs. 102,000; on the 31st July 1909 this year they were Rs. 163,000. I mean that the bailleurs de fonda on the 31st July of this year owed them Ra. 163,000.
17,825. (Chairman.) That is an increase of Rs.61,000! -Yes, but the power of purchase has increased this year by nearly 30 or 40 per cent. from the estates, Lecause in 1907 they had had very, very large economies-I, for one, have done 30 per cent. on Stanley-everywhere, and the year after we have spent Home more, and this year we are going on as usual. To the Mauritius Engrais Chimiques ----
To that 17,326. What is that P-Chemical manure. company there was owed on the 31st March 1907 Rs. 364,000, Here I call your attention to this. At that moment on the 31st March it is supposed that all the debts are paid, and that we will begin again for u new year. The bailleurs de fonds were indebted to the Chemical Manure Company for Rs. 364,000, and those figures are official figures. I have had some difficulty to get these figures from three merchanta; the others refused, but I have got three which are Atire. Twelve months Inter the sum was Ra, 384,000. On the same day in the next year it was Rs. 348,000. To Mr. Lagesse, one of the rice merchants of Port Louis, there was owed on the 30th June 1907 Re. 767,000; on the 90th June 1908 Rs. 845,000, and this year Rs. 825,000. That is to prove to you that in view of a good crop the credit is better. You can see from the figures I give you for the last three yours that that credit is nearly the mnie. Then the bailleurs de fonda took money from the bank in April and paid the arrears of those debts, and when the crop has gone
[Continued
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they had the first sugar, and they sold it at once at a price as they are doing now they are selling sugar now in the place at Rs. 8 250 There is no reason to sell sugar now at Rs. 250. they sell sugar at Rs 8250 to pay all the merchants' debts, and in three months they will have to pay the banks, because all the money you take from the bank you must repay in October, November and December; and when the two firms shut their doors 1 have seen with my own eyes the sold notes of sugar sold that year for next year at 30 e. and 40 c. under the current price. That is to give immediate money and to pay the bank,
17,327. What you wish to put to us is, that there is an extraordinary absence of money ?—Yes, exactly
17,328. Everything is done on credit ?--Yes; and when there is, as this year, a good prospect, the credit is easy but if we had a bad year everybody will shut. the bank will shut, and naturally the merchants depending upon the lanks will shut, and we shall find ourselves in the same boat.
17,399. (Sir Edward ('Malley.) Then it indicates also that the bailleurs de fonds að a body are deeply indebted - Yes.
17.330. Unable to pay off their debts?—Perbapa some, yes; they sometimes have much more money than at present.
17.330a. Some, but taking them collectively, these
40 bailleurs de fonds, their accounts at the bank are very largely overdrawn; their accounts with these trades- men are largely overdrawn; they are paying up as they can from year to year, but there is still a very large balance of debt Yes, always; but we have not 40 bailleurs de fonds--only a few ones.
17,331. (Chairman.) How do you explain where they have lost the money? When they make losses which reault in their failure, such as you have been speaking of, that of your cousin and of Messrs. Regnard, how did they lose the money?-What concerned my cousin is that he has made too many offers without having sufficient money.
17,332. He undertook too much business?—Tes, ho was relying upon the good prospects.
17,333. He was discounting the future?-Yes. Ha made a bad crop and both he and Messrs. Regnard failed together.
17,334. (Mr. Woodcock.) But I understand that in every year there comes a moment where the bailleur de fonds sells the sugar; gets paid for that sugar, and ought to repay himself every penny that he has spent or has promised to spend on behalf of the estate P Yen.
17.335. And if an honest bailleur de fonds paid those debts each year, kept on paying the merchants when he had sold the sugar crop, he never could get into this state of indebtedness to the merchants P------ Surely not.
17,936. Therefore, how do you suggest that this state of indebtedness has come about P. “Do you suggest that there bailleurs de fonds have spent it privately?— They begin without money, or too small an amount of money; they begin with credit, and they cannot get the money they intend to get yearly to pay those debts.
17,397. And then they pass the credit on, by all this indebtedness, to the merchants --Yes.
17,388. (Chairman.) I understand when you speak of your cousin, and of Mewers. Regnard, you say that in because they were speculating Yes.
17,989. They were speculating on the future being successful, whereas the future turned out to be bad?---- Tea, a very bad crop.
17,340. Quite so, and they were ruined ?--You. 17,341. If the future had turned out with good crops, they would have been all right!-You.
17,342. But because the crops were bad they were ruined ?--Yes.
17,849. You speak of the whole number of bailleurs de fonds in Mauritius being involved to this extent, that they owe these large sums of money. Now I under. stand that you say that that is because they also under- take to sasist extates for sums of money which they do not possess; they have to borrow that money, and they borrow it at such a high rate of interest that,
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