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PUBLIC RECORD OFFICE

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PUBLIC RECORD OFFICE, LONDON

NG

17 August Young

MAURITIUS ROYAL COMMISSION, 1980,

The Hon ANTELME

unless everything goes very well for them, they keep getting more and more involved, and they are not able pay their debts unless there comes a very wonderful year, which may put them right for the moment ?--You Narly the whole of the tailleurs de fonda

17,314. And then I suppose when they are once put right, they begin speculating again undertaking more siness than they have got capital to do and they get into difficulty again Yen.

17445 What do you anggest is the remedy for that? I have suggested that advances may be made I have sent to you a translation of a letter whb wrote when I made my motion in Commeil

17.346 (Sir Edward ('Malley.) Before you leave You say the Frpoint may I ask you this question. balleur de fonds contracts to provide for the faisutve

lear with yun? Yes.

17.347 A bad year follows, he sells your crop, do you mean that. having sold your crop, he finds homself unable to recoup himself what he has advanced for you-In this year?

17.348 In any your in a bad year when the crop does not pay for the faisance valoir? Yes.

17,349 That is what you say? That when there alad year they are unable to pay.

17,350 (Mr Woodeark | Unable to recoup them

milies

The bailleur de fonds lenda you money? Yes 17.351 Then he has to sell your crop? Yes. 17.352. Do you know any year in which he has Hold your crop for less than the amount which he has advanced to you? No, for my own business, never.

17,353 (Chairman, Mr. Woodcock does not mean you at all, he means that. suppose a bailleur de fonds has advanced Rs 190,000 to any estate, have you ever beard of a case where the crop of sugar, when it was ald, fetched only, we will say. Rs. 90,000, and left the Patate indebted to the bailleur de fonds?-No, for some years I have never heard so.

17,354. Because, if the crop is always larger than the sum which has been advanced, the bailleur de fonda can never get into difficulty?-No, but some of the

leurs de fon-ls cannot get rid of debts they are carrying since years, hoping always in the next year.

17,355. How is he going to get into difficulties if the crop always sells for more money than he has advanced? I do not know what they do on their books, on their papers, but I know, for my own business. I have never given any balance to my bailleur de fonds. I have always sent sugar which fetched more than the amount of the advance.

17,356 You are speaking of yourself? Yes, of myself.

17,357. Have you ever heard of anybody else—have you ever heard of a bailleur de fonds, who had lent

this estate or to that estate a sum of money, and then there was a bad year and the crop, when it was sold. did not realise as large a sum as had been lanced by the bailleur de fonds to the estate ?--No.

17,358. Then how can the bailleur de fonds ever get into difficulty - do not well understand you. You say, do I know estates which had sent more sugar for uore money than they had taken from the bailleur de fonds?

Have you ever known 17.359. No, lesa money. where their crop has sold for less then the advance? -No, I have never heard so.

17,380. Then the ailleurs de fonds cannot lose money? They do not lose money, but they are always carrying their debts; it is very easy to put it on paper.

17,361. But it in a debt which is not their debt; They do not want it in the debt of the estate. machinery; they do not want fertilisers; they do not want rice that in all for the estate, and if, when the crop of the estate is sold it sells for more money than the cost of all those things together for the faisance valoir, it is quite clear that the bailleurs de fonds cannot lose money -The bailleurs de fonds never lose muney. I have never known an example of a bailleur de fonds for 10 or 12 years losing money here.

17,382. (8ir Edward O'Malley.) You say that the billeur de fonds never loses money over the transaction P

No.

17,363. But you say that the 40 bailleurs de fonda

[Continued

in the Colony have, in the course of years, been very largely overdrawn and in debt ? - Yes.

17.364 How is it that they did not pay off thei debt to the bank each year out of the proceeds of the sale of the sugar? They must pay to the bank.

17.365 Why did not they also pay to the merchants out of the proceeds of the sale of the sugar the money that was owing to them for the faisance valoir?--I do not know, but there is the position.

17.366 (Mr. Woodcock i We understand the position It may be suggested that instead of paying those debts to the merchants, they used that money to live upon and to have a good time; that they spent it t themselves? No, not exactly for that purpose.

17,367 Something must happen to it-They live en er slit

In the bank.

17,368 Let me put it in this way ruptcy proceedings of those two firms of Regnard and Antelme, those two firms were bound to give to the court some explanation of how it was that they had left these debts unpaid. they were bound to explain that to the court, to the judge P-No, I think Mr Reguard made an arrangement with his creditors that they should be paid in five years.

17,369. Then what about the other firm - About the other, he haul given all.

17,370. And there was a bankruptcy there?—Yes. 17371. Very well. Now he had to explain to the Judge in Bankruptcy why he had not paid these debts? -Nu, he had nest to explain anything. He has not been put in bankruptcy.

17,372. He has also made an arrangement there- a composition?—Not a composition. He has abandoned all the estates. They have all been handed over.

17.373 Then it is a case of cessio bonorum?-It is difficult to explain the position which you are talking

about.

17,374. (Chairman.] What we cannot understand is how the builleur de fonds gets into debt. You say that he always gets from the estate enough money to meet the advancea. How is it that he gets into debt P-A number of people canse to me in 1907 and asked me to move the Government to get a loan to amist planters. I went to the same people last week, and asked them to give me the Sgures to show the difficulties of the financial position, and they at once made objections, saying that it was impossible for them, in their business, to give me the statement that I asked for. I said that I did not want anybody's names, but that I did want the figures, in order that the exact state of the situation might be explained, and I suggested to them that if in December there should come a cyclone which greatly damaged the crop, that the Government was already indebted to the extent of about Rs. 1,000,000, and I asked them what they would then do, as in December the banks could not give any credit; then they gave me the figurea which I have read to you previously. They gave me the figures, but said that they had the greatest hesitation in doing so, because they were all inen of business, and, after the Royal Commissioners had gone away they were afraid that they might get into trouble. because the financial affairs of this Colony are in the hands of a group, and it is necessary to work with them, or elac they will decline to give you financial assistance. 17,375. You have had transactions with the bank ? -Yes, I am now in transaction with the bank to pay the debts.

17,376. Have you ever been badly treated by the bank yourself!—Never.

17,377. In it a fact that if you want to borrow money from the Commercial Bank you have to go to one or more of the directors and get him to recommend your request to the bank, or else they will not lend the money -Exactly. There are a few persons who have made applications to the Commercial Bank.

17,378. No, I am speaking of the director of the Commercial Bank P-When you want an advance you go round to all the members and you try to persuade them to give you money.

17,379. Have you ever to pay anything for that F-I have never paid in this way, but they are paid in another way. All that I am saying is, of course, confidential. When my cousin failed and he was

17 August 1909

MINUTES OF EVIDENCE.

The Hon. G. ANTELME,

That

completely ruined, in the street, I went to see the Chairman of the Mauritius Commercial Bank, and asked him to give me time to pay the aum which was due by my cousin, which had been taken by him for Stanley, and they considered the question and they gave me three years in which to repay them. was in 1907. I have already paid two terms and I have the last one to pay in January next I have then be to Mr. Leclézio's place and Mr. Leclezio is the man for the Mauritius Commercial Bank; he is a rector of the Mauritius Commercial Bank, and I asked him to make my concordat. My concordat was

very short one.

17,389, (Mr Woodcock.) Your agreemeut ?—Yes. I had to pay for my agreement was a very short une. thus to my legal adviser, who had only to put on the paper the agreement to pay in three years to the Mauritius Commercial Bank, to Mr. Lagesse and two or three others--a sheet of paper not much bigger than this Rs. 10,000.

17.381. For drawing up that document ?—Yes.

17,382. May I ask who your legal advisor was?—In that case Mr. Leclézio was not my legal adviser, he was the man who put my paper before the bank-my bills before the bank. For the faisance valoir we generally make what wo callan opening of credit. The opening f credit is a sheet of paper in which it is said that, Mr. So-and-so, sworn broker, engages to give to Mr. So-and-so the sum of so much, with an estimate annexed to the paper, and the estate is bound to give all the sugar and the sugar sold is put at his risk in dock warrants, and so on, and this paper is signed. You generally pay for that sheet of paper Rs. 3,000, That is the way in which it is proceeded with.

17,383. (Chairman.) To whom is that Rs. 3,000 paid?-To the solicitors.

17,384. But not to a director of the bank ?-No. 17,385. Why should not you draw the paper your. self Because it is necessary that this paper should be drawn up by a lawyer,

17,386. (Mr. Woodcock.) He is a lawyer, and he is also a director of a bank?--Yes.

17,387. That might be met by forbidding any director of the bank by law to act as a lawyer to a person who is borrowing from the bank ?—I do not know, but you know, there is this position here.

17,388. I just want to follow that up. May I ask You give me this example with regard to Mr. Loclézio. I understand there have to be three persons-three directors of the bank-who must support your application. Am I right ?—No, I think all the directors must support my application.

you this.

17,389. I know, but I thought you had to go round and get as many of the directors as possible to support your application !—Yes.

17,390. Did you do that in this case ?Yes, I have been everywhere.

17,391. Whom did you get to support your application when you went round? How many of these directors promised you that they would support your application -All of them.

17,392. All of the directors promised you that they would support your application?-Yes, they have been very kind to me.

17,393. I just want to take this step by step. Now did you have to give any sum of money, or any advantage, or any benefit to any of these other directors-None.

17,394. And have you ever heard that any of those directors ever do expect to receive money, or benefit, or profit of some sort, because they have recommended

loan to the bank P-No.

17,395. You have never heard of that P-I have never heard of that. I have heard that they do generally, some of them who are lawyers, have what they call their note to make the paper.

17,396. (Chairman.) As to that. Ra. 3,000 which you have just told us about, what we should like to know in why it is that one director gets Rs. 3,000 or Rs. 10,000 for your paper, and what do the others get? -No, he does not get that as a director of the bank.

17,397. No, he gets that as a lawyer ?—Yes. 17,398. It is only as a lawyer; therefore, if a man

[Continued

87

is at once a lawyer as well as a director of the bank, it is a great advantage to him?--Yes, surely, and the directora of the lank are found everywhere in the direction of the other affairs of the Colony.

17,399. I cannot believe that it is only the lawyers who receive it; they must divide that afterwards?-- That I do not know, but you know every estate her has either Mr. Leclezio, Mr. K. Vern, or Mr. Ritter us legal adviser. They are the legal advisers. They are generally paid yearly a certain sum.

estate owner.

17,400. (Mr Woodcock.) By the bank ?-No, by the He is paid so much at a time, and so much for doing the business afterwards.

17.401. He is paid a retainer?-Yea, I have been the owner of Deep River during 15 years, and we have been paying to our legal adviser-he was Mr. Leclézio --Ra. 3,000 a year as legal adviser.

17,402. (Chairman.) That is a retainer ?--Yes, and at any time when we had to renew our society we had to pay Rs. 10,000.

17,403. Huw often did you renew your society during these 15 years -Perhaps twice, I think. That is to show you that, besides the big interests and com. missions in town, the estates have to pay much in town. The price of sugar has gone down and the price of everything else has remained the same.

17,404. (Mr. Woodcock.) Just one question on this Rs. 10,000 that were paid to Mr. Leclézio -On my concordat

17,405. Yes?- Rs. 5,000 I paid to him, and Rs. 5,000 to Mr. Guibert.

17,406. And Mr. Guibert is also a director, is he? Not this year.

17,407. He was a director when you paid that sum ? --No, I do not think so.

17,408. (Chairman.) How did it happen that you came to pay Rs. 5,000 to Mr. Leclézio and Rs. 5,000 to Mr. Guilbert Mr. Leclézio was the attorney and Mr. Guilbert was the counsel. That has been paid by

the estate.

17,409. (Mr. Woodcock.) By your estate?—Yes. 17.410. But did each of these other gentlemen, who had to go to the bank, pay Rs. 10,000 in that way?-- What other gentlemen!

17,411. There were others concerned with you in this matter P-No.

17.412. Nobody else?—No, that was sufficient for me, but all those who had been taken by the bad affairs of Antelme and Reguard have had also to pay large amounts of money for their notes to the lawyers. Sometimes it is less than Rs. 3,000, but generally the notes from lawyers to planters are very heavy.

17,413. (Chairman.) But you say that each year, when anybody has to go to the bank to ask for assist. ance for the faisance valoir, the ordinary practice is to pay Rs. 3,000 P-When they have got their assist. ance they make their opening of credit with the bailleur de fonds, and to make that opening of credit with the bailleur de fonds they pay Rs. 3,000.

17,414. To the lawyer who draws up the paper P Yes, and that paper is not a regular one.

17,415. It is never produced P-It cannot be pro- duced. If you read my speech on fresh record you will see what I say about it. That is done, but it is not legal.

17,416. (Sir Edward O'Malley.) What was the date of that speech P-I do not remember, but I will send you the date if you wish.

17,417. (Chairman.) Is there anything else you particularly want to tell us ?—I should like to tell you this. I have told you that we want money, and I have told you that I am very embarrassed to tell you in what manner that money can be given to all of us, on account of the difficulties of hypothecaire. I think that the best thing is to give money either on the part of the value of the estates, to half the value of the estate and a loan on the crop, I think, with the experience I have of the country and its people, that if money is granted to us it will be necessary, in the future, to have experts not relieving from the Board which is going to give the money.

17,418, Independent of the Loan Board-in fact let us speak of it as a Loan Board. You say that

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