་།༢། ཟ། །
PUBLIC RECORD OFFICE
Reference :-
C.O. 882
7PUBLIC RECORD OFFICE, LONDON
ALLY WITHOUT PERMISSION OF THE BE REPRODUCED PHOTOGRAPHIC- COPYRIGHT PHOTOGRAPH-NOT TO
Mr. F. Shaw.
44
MINUTES OF EVIDENCE:
1630. Some witnesses have said that it was a loss to
a country to change from the silver to the gold standard, 13 Jan. 1903. because if you are a planter the more silver falls the more standard coins you get and the more profit you make? You have got to pay more for your labour; it is bound to come to that. Just in the beginning perhaps you might have benefited to a certain extent, but now that we are surrounded by gold countries I'do not think that we do.
1631. You have not resided in the Straits Settle- ments-I resided in Province Wellesley.
1632. I mean you have resided in Province Wellesley, but nowhere else in the Straits 7-No, only passing through.
1633. I do not know whether you have any sugges- tions to make as to the best method of introducing & gold standard -No, I really could not venture to make Any sugestions.
1634. (Mr. Johnson.) When you said that you paid the tobacco growers according to their results, at what price did you pay them; was it in proportion to the gold price that you got for the tobacco in England?— Oh, no. No, we took our risk of what price we might obtain for the tobacco we sent home.
1636. Well, you paid them so many dollars-So many dollars.
1636. According to the quality of the tobacco 7-Yes. 1637. But the price, I suppose, in course of time went up as the value of the dollar fell 1-The system has been entirely changed. At first we cut down the whole plant, and the prices ranged from $8 per 1,000 down to $1. Now they pick the leaves, and pay so much per 1,000 or 10,000 leares.
1638. Yes, but comparing 1892 with 1897-for the same quality of tobacco were you paying more dollars because the dollar was depreciated 7-Yes; what I said was, we had to pay it indirectly by having to supply them with rice and opium at a loss.
1639. Yes, but otherwise you have not paid them any more?-We have paid them more in this way-that we now pay for leaves instead of plants.
1640. (Chairman.) Do you pay now more per 1,000 leaves than you have paid 7-Yes, I think so.
1641. (Mr. Johnson) But if the dollar fell more; the dollar is at 1s. 7d.; now, supposing the doller next year-just to take an extreme case fell to 1s., and
meanwhile the price of tobacco in London remained the same, would you pay any more dollars in the Colony to these men except in rice and opium -Yes; it is gradually coming that we have got to pay them higher wwgee.
1642. You have got to pay the vigher wages; they gradually rise, though not quite so fset as the dollar falle 7-Yes, it is gradually rising.
1643. (Mr. Adamson.) There is one question which I would like to ask which arises out of tris. If it is advantageous to have a gold standard in a country, and you say the legal coin was a guilder based upon gold, why did you not all adopt the gold standard 7 Why did you not take the guilder?-Because it was the currency of the place. The official currency has always been the guilder, but the people of the country have always used the dollar.
1644. Yes; but if it would be of advantage to the country to have stability, why did you not all take the guilder-We have never been able to get guilders, you know, in any quantity, never.
1645. But there you had the stability which is wanted, and it does not seem to have worked ?--The men did not understand it at all; they did not under- stand the guikler at all. The railroad, for instance: you have got to pay your fare in guilders that in to say, the guilder at a certain rate of exchange.
1646. So that, in point of fact, it was the native who would not take the guildor?-He would not have taken the guilder.
1647. It was not because the dollar was so much cheaper 1-Oh, no, I do not think it was because the dollar was cheaper, but he was not accustomed to it, and you know how very conservative a Chineman is, and he will not touch anything he does not know any- thing about. He knows the dollar, and he wants to stick to the dollar.
1648. If the Straits introduced a new dollar, do you suppose that the natives would want to get the old one? -Oh, I do not think so; he would very soon get used to it.
1649. (Chairman.) Is there anything else you would like to say, Mr. Shaw-No, I do not think so.
1660. You have no further statement to make No. 1651. Thank you; we are much obliged to you,
EIGHTH DAY.
Tuesday, 20th January 1903.
PRESENT:
Sir DAVID BARBOUR, K.C.9.1., K.C.M.G. (Chairman) presiding.
Mr. W. ADAMSON, C.M.G. Mr. G. W. JoHNSON.
1
Mr. W. BLAIN.
Mr. T. H. WHITEHEAD, called; and Examined, Mr. T. H. 1662 (Chairman.) You have resided in the East, I Whit-head. believe, Mr. Whitehead 7-Yes, some eight-and-twenty
years.
20 Jan. 190X.
1653. Beginning with what year 7-1874, in India. 1654. Were you in India for any length of time On different occasions, I think in the aggregate some four years.
1665. Besides that, you have resided in the Straits Settlements 1-Yes.
1656. In Japan 1-Yes.
1657. And in China, too -And in China also, yes
1658. And you have been a member of the Legislative Council of Hong Kong-Yes.
1650. And subsequently a member of the Executive Council of that colony That is so, for two terms of office of 12 years I served on the Legislative Council.
Mr. A. E. COLLINS, Secretary,
1660. What business did you follow while in the East-I went out originally as th assistant accountant in the Chartered Bank of India. I was afterwards accountant, and for upwards of 20 years manager at different parts, not only in India, but in the Straits, Chins, and Japan, and was superintendent of the far Eastern branches for quite a number of years 10 or 12 years.
1661. And in that position you were no doubt com- pelled to give attention to the question of the relative value of gold and silver -Daily.
1662. And you have more or less made a special study of the question I have. I wrote an exhaustive paper in 1885 which I read before the Royal Colonial Institute, entitled "The Critical Position of British Trade with Silver-using Countries," which dealt with the currency question.
1663. You have prepared a memorandum for this
COMMITTEE ON STRAITS SETTLEMENTS CURRENCY.
Committee-Yes, and I may say also that when last at home three years ago I wrote a paper and read it before the Royal Colonial Institute, also down in Liverpool, under the auspices of the Chamber of Commerce there, on the subject of "British Interests in China."
1664. You have, I imagine, no objection to our treat- ing your memorandum as a portion of the evidence and printing it 7-Absolutely none.
1665. I understand from this memorandum that you consider it a very serious thing to change the monetary standard of any country 1-A most serious undertaking. 1666. On what account? Well, as I have pointed out in that memorandum, to change the standard of a country lands to paralyse and dislocate trade and com- merce, and all contracts legally entered into on the standard which obtains at the time when such con- tracts are made.
1667. But if a standard was depreciating very much, or appreciating very much, the change from the one standard to the other might in some cases prevent injustice instead of creating it? Well, dealing with the Straits ----
1668. I mean, do you object to that as a general principle-to what I have said I think there is some- thing in your statement. To what extent I agree with it I am not at present prepared to say, but there is something in it.
1669. I do not put it forward as an opinion held by me; I put it forward as an opinion held by some people, and ask your opinion upon it; that is all 7-Would you kindly repeat the question?
1670. Ife standard were depreciating very much, or appreciating very much; in short, if a standard were not a good standard owing to either of these causes, then the change from that standard to another standard might be an improvement, and might prevent in- justice instead of creating it?-Much would depend upon the nature of the standard substituted for the standard which previously was in force. If that stan- dard was thorough and effective then in some respects in the aggregate there might be an advantage. But take, to wit, the recent action of the Siamese Govern- ment, they have recently created a standard which is a vacillating standard; that is to say, it is on a sliding scale. If the gold price of silver rises the Government give more tickals for the sovereign, and if the gold price of silver falls the Government give less number of tickala per £. Merchants and others engaged in trade there make a contract to-day on to-day's basis, but if there is a rise in the gold price of silver to-morrow their competitors would be able to get more tickals for the sovereign, and vice versa on the downward gold price of silver, they get less tickals. That is not a standard which any civilised Government would attempt to establish.
1671. But it has not been proposed, so far as I am aware, to introduce a standard of that nature into the Straits Settlements I hope not.
1672. I understood from your memorandum you hold that whatever the monetary standard may be in the Straits, the bulk of the money in use would continue to be silver money 7-Yes, I hold that view.
1673. Even with a gold standard 7-Even with a gold standard. Yos.
1674. You think that a gold coin suitable for the wants of the population there would be too large in value as to be unusable -I do not think 90 per cent. of the population could use it; I do not think they would use it. They have been accustomed to think and act in silver all their lives, and are too poor to use gold
money.
1675. Do you think that the general population in the Straits are anxious for a change from a silver to a gold standard 1-I have not heard of it; I know of no such movement on the part of the native population.
1676. I see you hold that more than half the popu- lation of the whole world still use silver and copper money -That is so; I think statistics will demon- strate that this is a fact.
1677. And you point out that from the proceedings of the Currency Committee appointed by the Colonial Government of the Straits in July, 1893, it appears that Asiatics were in favour at that time of the continuance of the silver standard I read the evidence of the Asiatice given, and nearly all of them were in favour of silver.
45
1678. You have not observed that a fall in the value Mr. T, H. of silver has interfered with the production of tin, Whiteheud pepper, spice, etc., in the Malay Peninsula ? On the contrary, I think the production has gone on increas. 20 Jau. 1903 ing.
1679. And you point out that the imports and the exports of the Straits Settlements have continued to increase 7-Steadily, but in connection therewith I think there must be some mistake in the Official Returns, inasmuch as the total excess of imports over exports during 21 years to 31st December, 1901, is no less than $361,303,415, which cannot be accurate.
1680. The excess of the imports Of the importa over the exports. Now, I think that cannot be accurate, and since I prepared that memorandum I have gone into the matter very thoroughly. I think there must be a duplication of imports, that is to say, a considerable quantity of tin ore produced in the Malay States is imported into the Straits Settlements, manufactured there and re-exported. I can only account for the importe exceeding the exports by something of this sort having happened.
1681. But then it would show both as an import an.l an an export? It ought to appear as an import into the Straits, to begin with, in the form of ore, and it ought
to appear as an export when it was sent out Well, it should do so, but I cannot account for this excess of im. ports of merchandise as well as an excess of imports of treasure. How have these been paid for↑
1682. Do you think it is possible there are exports from the Straits Settlements to the mainland which do not appear in the returns; might it be possible, for instance, that small vessels would take over articles from the Straits Settlements to the mainland, along the coast somewhere, and that these articles might not appear in the returns 7-It might be possible, bas 1 should doubt it to this extent.
1683. Then, you point out that the Government of the Straits Settlements has not got any gold indebted- ness, and that there is no pressure on the Government to change from one standard to the other on account of the loss caused by the fall in exchange?-Absolutely none; they have no gold indebtedness; that is to say, they have no loans; they may have a gold contribution to pay to the Imperial Government for military pur poses, but that is all.
1684. (Mr Johnson.) That is not so; they do not pay a contribution in gold to the Imperial Govern- ment I recollect now it is 17 per cent, of their revenue, which is collected in silver.
1685. (Chairman.) You also point out that the Straits Settlements and the Malay States on the silver stand. dard have developed in a very remarkable manner?— In a most remarkable manner.
1686. Commerce has grown, and there has been a substantial increase in the value of real estate, while rent, wages, and the cost of living generally have risen considerably-That is so.
1687. In fact, according to your evidence, there ha been an adjustment going on as silver fell in value re- latively to gold A steady adjustment, and I think the official returns demonstrate chronic prosperity.
1688. Do you consider that Java with a gold stan dard has prospered equally with the Straits Settle- ments I have not been able to go into the official returns, but I do not think they have; I do not think that Java has so prospered.
1689. Have you any figures on that point I have not had the time to go into them. Of course, their main product in Java is sugar, and sugar estates, as is well known, have been in anything but a prosperous condi tion for years.
1690. In Java ?—In Java.
1601. Have they been prosperous in the Malay States; has the sugar business been prosperous there? -There are one or two companies manufacturing sugar. I think they have prospered, and have paid handsom dividends, especially one whose chiel office is at Shanghai. I cannot recollect the name of it, but it would be a very simple matter to turn it up.
1692. You point out that between 1881 and 1901 the imports of the Straite increased from $77,000,000 odd to $233,000,000 odd 7-The exports and imports into the Straits, you.
1693. The imports; I am talking of the imports at