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RALPH INGERSOLL :
February 24, 1941.
Ralph Ingersall is the Editor of the New York news- "paper, "PM," and Ben Robertson is the journal's London Correspondent, Both, have 100n London in the worst periods of the Nazi air raids. In view of the wide publicity given to the statements made by Mr Joseph P. Kennedy, the former U.S. Ambassador to London, cons -corning America's defence problems and_international problems bearing on Britain's war effort, Ingersoll took the extraordinary stop of interviewing his own reporter on the matter of the Ex-Ambassador's record in London in order to find out what Mr Kennedy's words were worth. interview Some time ago Mr Kennedy disowned an published in the "Boston Globo" in which he suggested that it was erroneous to think that democracy was alive in England.
nedy.
*
BEN ROBERTSON
the
INGERSOLL. No one Ilken being to us and do something about it- im- bombert. Why didn't the British Gov-medlutely. He wan almost liko a ernment leave London? They were us father to his personal concern about free to go to the country on Joe Ken- nur kafely. One day some of us were What going to Dover. fe phoned us. ROBERTSON: The Government be- hotel were we going to slay al? How nedy, you know, is talking on the and they stayed at their posts.
INGERSOLL: Ex-Ambassador Ken Heved in what they were fighting for long were wo going to be there? ife the reason Wathington sent Donovan radio to-night. Dit you have any came home as quickly as he could.
He got us on planes into England and out (Col. William J. Donovan al chance to know him when you were
of England and we all were grateful Fighting 60th) over-in order to see who INGERSOLL: That's just your own to him,
was right. We know Kennedy wne in London? Did you have any bus opinion? ness with him? Did you and the ROBERTSON: No. That was
INGERSOLL: It may be an unkind furious about Donovan's arrival. While the thing to say but from what you have he was there, there was a rumour that other American correspondents there opinion of most of the correspondents. told me I would belleve that Joe Ken- Kennedy had resigned three times. We interest yourselves at all in how this. They come in all colours and shapes nedy was a very sensitive man on the certainly know what Donovan's conclu- country was being represented in and sizes but correspondents aren't subject of safety.
alons were. They weren't Kennedy's taken in very long. One funny thhut, ROBERTSON Yes. He frequently at all, ROBERTSON: Yes, would. Wo about Kennedy was
INGERSOLL Donovan thought it that he never urged all of us to go home. had constant business with him. We seemed to think anybody would re- saw hun on many occasiona.
INGERSOLL: Did he ever say nny was a good cause, well fought." Then in fact member his off-the-record speeches, thing, to you about what he thought you think Donovan's confidence inny to the American, correspondents, how we never printed them, of course. Britain's war alms were?,
have come from talking with other well we were represented was one of But wo were all highly Interested In HOBERTSON He said, "I can't American observera, the most important questions we felt London when we read about one of malte head or tall out of what, this HOBERTSON: The British turned
London?
we lind to answer. You know, London them in the Boston Globe Ile toki war's all about. If you can find out over everything to him. He saw every- in the midst of the war is a small town us the general sense, exactly what was why the British are standing up body as you did and I thinic his con and everybody knows everybody else, in the Interview he disowned. He against the Nazis you are a better mnu clusion were based on that, too. especially among the American cotony, once told me that he saw nothing in than I am."
INGERSOLL: Di Kennedy spend we were in particularly close contact store for the world but anarchy.
INGERSOLL: That is rather an much time with the British military with the Ambassador beenuse we were nil aliens in a country that was at war quality of fighting for one's principles bossador particularly one representing ROBERTSON: I never saw him in INGERSOLL: It hardly reflects the extraordinary statement for any am- people at Dover and at the military
hir "ports? and every step we took had to be that is so characteristic of Mr Roosen President who has been so - Dover at all and I never saw his pic- taken through the Ambassador. We vell and the Administration Mr Keil spoken in his analysis of the forces in- ture taken in any of the army camps, were in and out of his office every day nedy was representing in London, volved in the war in Europe..
on some business or other. All of us.
INGERSOLL: As I recall, you also got to know the men who were Aght- ing the Nazis pretty well too-the ac five members of the Beltish Govern- ment, men who were shooting down Messerschmitts, buning raiders and submarines. Do you think they could bave concealed their real opinions from you?
ROBERTSON: No, certainly not. If you go through a crisis with people there is sure to come a time when you stop talking for the record and mak- Ing diplomatic speeches and say what you really think. INGERSOLL
Possibly you even asked such on indiscreet questions as "What do you thinks of the American Ambassador in Luntion?" sometime or other?
ROBERTSON: Yes, that is true. They told us what Kennedy had sald to them. In fact, one of the interest, ing, things was to compare what Ken- nedy hai sald to them with what he had sold to us. He always led them to believe he was their greatest friend and even that last news reel he made before he left the Embassy to get the plane to Lisbon-gave, the im plication that they were doing a fine Job and that he was on their alde. I was at the embassy when that news reel was being made. It cheered up the British a great deal. They thought it was fine.
Said Different Things INGERSOLL; I don't quite get thní. You tell me that the British were pleased by what he said to then, but It doesn't sound as you Americ correspondents always were. Didn't he saw the saine thing to you that, he sald
to them?
ROBERTSON: No, I was relleved when I heard about the news reel be cause that hadn't been my impression. at all. He had given me and other American correspondents the distinct Impression that he was very sceptical about Britain's chances.
INGERSOLL: The American Am bassador said one thing to the British' and another to the American "corres pundents?
ROBERTSON: Yes. In fact, I was relleved when I heard' what he sald for the news reel because I was afraid he had lost_conddepce,
INGERSOLL: Lost confidence? That la interesting. What kind of pepple did he talk to or do business with?,
ROBERTSON: Well, he saw every.
often talked about was Chamberlain,
The PARADOX
of
KENNEDY
Joseph P. Kennedy shrewdly made $5,000 while still a Harvard student as co-owner of a bus. In 1914, when only 25, he became presi- deat of the Columbia Trust Co. a small Boston bank. During the Great War business-minded Kennedy managed a shipbuilding plant, of the Bethlehem Steel Co., and
and later worked on Wall Street. Then the movies
He often anid he was a misunderstood beckoned, and from 1924 to 1920 he was connected with the film in-
man and often mentioned that he was proud about the fact that he was the one who had Introduced Lindbergh, to Chamberlain,
MR Matsuoka, Japan's Foreign Minister, is reported to have offered to do anything in the Far East that would serve to restore a feeling of That is a most Interesting Giving Mr Matsuoka the credit for being an honcurable man, Is it not possible that his advisers, strongly coloured by Nazi- Far East isin, are anxious to lull the into a false sense of safety? That while we were listening to soft cogings from Tokyo, this end of the Axis would be arming to "the" leetii"|"Lody. But one whom his antred andTM to strike at a more opportune time? Mr Matsuoka does not have to ask us
what he should do to restore harmony. An regards Britain, he should with- draw his army, navy and air force from Indo-China where they have no good reason to be; he should cease being the willing tool of our greatest enemy, putting us on the defensive here because he 1109 admitted thousands of German sailors and military and naval experts to his shores, and to his councils, in cir- cumstances that have raised legi- timate suspicion of Japanese com- plicity in raider warfare at sen and in army toelics near our borders. The Netherlands, Philippines and Chitta can look after themselves and we shall be behind them because, selish as it may sound, their interests have been lied up with ours almost irrevocably by Japanese action and statements.
It so dimeult to get that man Kennedy down. He was so devious, You remember how we talked about his logic-how we couldn't see that hila
from conclusions could possibly come his premises?
He still seems to think that Britain wasn't prepared to fight. Perhaps had such an idea that he was a friend shouldn't have fought. But on the of the President's. other hand he would give you the im INGERSOLL: What made you say pression that they were right in Sght- that?
·
can come
INGERSOLL: Dld he spend much time visiting shelters with correspon- dents?
the
ROBERTSON: Not with 125. INGERSOLL: Dit he ever jo fire department during a ruld and sec how the fires were going on when There were bombers about?
ROBERTSON; He was in the country, INGERSOLL:, Well, that interests me profesulonally of course, As an observer 1 don't see how a man can appraise the progress of a war with- Đùi visiting it anil assuring himself on the equipment and morale of the fighting forces. Did the American military observers in the embassy get out and around?
The
RODERTSON: All the time. naval observers were with the ships at
sen
INGERSOLL: And those are the people whose opinion Kennedy passed up?
ROBERTSON; Look. You know what Gen. Strong sold when he came back. He believed the Drillat could hold out.
INGERSOLL: I think that is ter- ribly important to the American people to understand these things becouse we are 3,000 miles away and we have to take the opinion of expert witnesses, ROBERTSON: Since the Washing- ton left July 7 there haven't been 30 Americans who have come out of Eng- Inni.
Why Sent An Envoy? INGERSOLLA So you wouldn't say I was talking through my hat if I said these things that the observers who got around the most, saw the most and heard the most were the correspon- dents and the military observers ut- Inched to the legition. And the ques- tion of how the war's going, it it comes to an issue with Mr Kennedy, is their word against his?
ROBERTSON: Their word and facts, INGERSOLL: You know, I doubt ie people really understand that. The title of amungander is a preity over-powering one for most folks. 1 sounds so re- Itable and disinterested.
ROBERTSON: You know Kennedy al- ways wanted people to use his full title- His Excellency, the United States Ambas- andor to the Court of St James,
INGERSOLL: Ile looks well in a high hat. It is too bad American ambassadors don't get to wine knee breeches any more. ROBERTSON; Even the English don't dress for dinner now. They are busy fighting a war. Look here. "Can fellow Who is being interviewed ask a question? Do you know why President Roosevelt -sent-Mr-Kennedy-To-England-In-Cho-first-
place?
foresaw how important to the future of
"blandishments"
Wa
one person and one thing to another wrote up the story. The rest of us not. They were disillusioned and what
Roosevelt, One correspondent Teven ROBERTSON: They certainly dil place. We talked about it all the time.
charming
INGERSOLL: Noi first hand. But after the little I had heard in London and after the Louis Lyons Interview in the “Boston Globe" I made some enquiries. It appears dusity,
first as president of the Film Booking Offices of America and later as adviser to Reith-Albee-Orpheum. First National, RCA and that the same kind of thing you observed ·
In London Bad been going on in Washing- Paramount. After the 1929 crash, he qult movies, with, it is estimated,
ton. That is–Kennedy's" jetting so In- something like $5,000,000 clear profit. In 1934, he cleaned up in a Lib-
volved emotionally that some of the things lig was saying privately sounded irrespon- bey-Owens-Ford stock pool. Soon after that, his role as businessman-
sible. Someone suggested to the President financler was soft-pedalled. He was on his way to international politics.
that the simplest way out of this embar- These facts of Kennedy's career are given in "PM.**
Tasement would be to chango, Mr Kennedy's address. Which wasn't hard to ROBERTSON: "No. But we never ROBERTSON; I don't think Ken- arrange because many people who are position have gedy is concerned with those forces. impressed by title and Do you?
worked their whole lives to get an ap- INGERSOLL: A man with a sense polntinent to a foreign court, and Ken- of morality would be In London you nedy was, that kind of a man. At the ing. Our hooray for them. Sometimes ROBERTSON: Well, the day he left end i both saw innocent people killed. ame time no one in Washington really ho thought we should help them, he gave a party. He took his coat off We saw people fighting for the right civilisation such a job would become. The Sometimes he thought we shouldn't, and said, "Boys, I'm going to say what to work out their own destiny. We most experienced people, in Waitington Sometimes he said, they were giving us I haven't been able to for two years, raw people willing to suffer all kinds write Kennedy's appointment off to pollui- a chance to arm. That we should erm I have been saying yes when I meant of hardship, risking death and destruc- cal expediency. But don't know that -but that they would eventually 1030 no. Our Impression was that he was tion not only for themselves but for will my own knowledge. That is almply what responsible and serious-minded and that was that. That we should going home to denounce the President the people they loved. Don't you think people in Washington have told me. What
was your theory in London? drop them overboard and that they and might back the Republicans, I that these things moved Kennedy? didn't count. Sill he told the people was so concerned 1 got word to him
ROBERTSON: That's just about what ROBERTSON: Yes. Indeed, I think in the newsreel that they were doing to think it over before he acted. No they did inove him. But still, it was I've heard in London.
INGERSOLL: 011, by the way. a no job.
man appointed by the Democratic bad for business, Inconsistency
Party
out against
INGERSOLL I am gradually get have only got a few minutes et Did the
the British Government wine and dine nomince for the Democratic Party. ting what you mean. You left Lan you when you were in London? Do you How can we agree that their south- INGERSOLL: Well, I have got one Some of his secretaries told me they do only a little white no. Did the think it le possible that you muccumbed ward expansion is peaceful and clear picture of Kennedy In London a had been arguing with him for days, British people you talked with still to whint Senator Wheeler called British economic when Tokyo sintermen
least Mr Kennedy was a man who invariably add the postscript that if
sald one thing at one time, and a tlf. And it certainly was our impression in teel Kennedy was their friend?
London that he was dead against
Disillusioned
ROBERTSON: As eprrespondents; you ferent thing at another: one thing, to their peaceful alms are not successful,
aro hitting at us in our most sensitive they will prosecute them with arms? And belleved in Chamberlain and
INGERSOLL: Of course, I don't mean Such a policy is that of a gangster Lindbergh? Is that necurate?.
didn't get out on à limb because we disillusioned them were the state that personally, Ben, i just mean that approaching a Policeman with the ROBERTSON: Yes.
know him. We knew how mercurial ments he made here. Like a man who is of Americans think the British are ita words,
was. We have been wondering poser as your friend talking behind technique of winding innocent foreigners INGERSOLL: Well, how can you "I will not shoot if you hand
people and Wint they have a account for such an inconsistency ever since what happened between the your back. They heard he was going renund their nunding over your revolver and let me take
Did anyone in London have any arrived in New York. When he came and other places taiking off the record like this appears pro-British and friendly time he left London and the time he around here to dinners in lollywood over your bent. I want to look after
ROBERTSON: I anybody in Limo theoriesf my friends and get a little something ROBERTSON: We talked about it out for the President just before the with appeasement minded people. That to the Brigh causo, he opens himself to on the side for myself."
constantly every day. He was a great election he was doing the same kind was the kind of talk; they were help the accusation that he belongs to the Walter Hines Page school. I tell you, puzzle to us and finally the only way of thing he had been doing in London less to combat.
the people who count In this war tre INGERSOLL: That doesn't sound as too busy to buy champagne. We believe we could explain it was that he was saying one thing for the public and n Wall Street bear. He was a con- another in private.
If the appeasement bloc in England everything we have written have shown Brined pessimist and would sell any you about Kennedy in London is like bloc must have approved of Kennedy, and a sincere people and they can take !! INGERSOLL: You know, talking to was very strong. The appeasenient theniselves really to be a tough people thing short.
ROBERTSON: There is no appease INGERSOLL: You mean that where, developing a negative in the dark.
Like Pioneers as military men and working journal. room. There's a picture emerging here mont bloc in England. If therò ja il Isis and people whose lives are in- but it doesn't seem to me to be the certainly isn't saying anything now, that when i was with you in London. INGERSOLL: I was interested to note- volved in a war can get used to picture of one of America's great men. It has no power at all.
for every bona fide member of the upper, INGERSOLL: The American Em classes that we met you talked with bombing it may be, harder for a big He doesn't look like Benjamin Frank- business man who is jump about his in the man who represented our in- bassy is not entirely a one man show, teores, if not hundreds of simple people prost
terests in France in the course of the There are many trained observera at- or people who were carrying the Immo- ROBERTSON; He told us one day, American Revolution,
inched to an embassy in a great capital, ale responsibliity of fighting, the Natis "This wat's raising hell with my bust-
Liquor Doalor
Did the trained observers in the putting out fres. shooting planes downs
with anti-aircraft and things-like that. ness."
American legation all see the situation ROBERTSON 1 always thought that INGERSOLL: Yes, I can see how I, ROBERTSON: He was a Den Frank, the way he saw it?
what they had to say about the war_WAX wouki. But I was also thinking of the breath of fresh air to the English with I talked with.
In though in one way. He was.P ROBERTSON: Not any of them that a lot more significant than whit Lord difference between the way people
Halifax had to say. In London, I got a lake bombing. I don't know about his Irishness and his ning children.
INGERSOLL: They didn't think the I ever had before. I thought & 101 about
better understanding of the U.3.A. than Kennedy personally but I did notice. And they had never had a liquor British case was hopeless?
ROBERTSON: Not all that there were some people in Lons dealer before as the ambassador of a
the original ploneers here and what they don whose judgment was less affected foreign power,
INGERSOLL: Kennedy made up his had fought for and I could see that the
Londoners by fear than others.
INGERSOLL: Well, the Germans mind by himself then? Without tak- new kind are up to them, in this
of war. ROBERTSON: We used to fough used to send the English their Von Ing their knowledge or advice? -
INGERSOLL: Weil, to-night we will about the fact that Kennedy stayed in Ribbentrop, who used to sell cham- ROBERTSON: He may have oven ave a chance to hear what his Excel- the country most of the time instead pagne. I remember you telling - mú, made his mind up before the event,
fency the Ambasador to the Court of of in London. The story that wo, Kennedy was an efficient fellow in the INGERSOLL: What makes you say had there's no way to put 100 or more 81, James 13 to say about it all. Too I heard all over London was that Kan- way he ran his embassy.
that?
American correspondenta in London and nedy, having, taken the stand he did. ROBERTSON: He couldn't have been
ROBERTSON: He had taken that line a score of trained military and Raval -publicly, approving the British-he better. And personally I hate to say long ago and felt he had to continue it. observers on national radio hook-ups, thought he had to stay long enough to anything against him because he wan INGERSOLL: Then you go back to too I think the American people would be bombed. After he had been there, so helpful in that respect. Times were his belief in Chamberlain, and Lind- and their testimony pretty Interesting in three months he felt that was enough, sorious in London and often we need- bergh and their ideas?
making up their minds about the legisla He didn't like it. But he felt he was ed his help in our personal problems.
ROBERSTON: It was felt that the ROBERTSON: I am afraid the real
Lion now before Congresa, tradem obligated to go through a few bombs We could always depend upon him difference in opinion between Kennedy experts haven't rat the money to buy the. and ralds to save face,
He was always available, would listen and the military and naval aide was time on a national radio hook-up.
If there is anything sincero about Japanese polley it is dislike of a wor with Britain and America. We should appreciate that but for the certain fact that when abe is prepared and when the advance starts, her military leaders will not hesitate to send the Japanese people into the confict again if resistance is met.
Japan is somewhat like the good boy who strolled out of the family councils and, Anding an epay-going weaker friend, fell to bullying. The little boy, was not disciplined; in fact be managed to wrest some childish spolls, which stimulated a latent | avaricious streak. He atrayed more. often and took some beatings from his victims but then he fell among bad companions who played upon his in- decklon--whether to stay on the streets at night or go home to his own home, and a regular, if small, wage.
It's the old story of low versus the Inwless but nowadays every citizen belongs to the vigilantes. Japan will not be told: the democracies will not bo cowed.
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