HONG KONG URBAN COUNCIL
hawkers who were running away from GD Teams, spilled boiling oil around and jeopardised the safety of passers-by. There were suggestions that the GD Teams should be in plainclothes to arrest hawkers without letting them run away. If Mr. BERNACCHI's motion is to be accepted today, that would mean that in future there will again be a lot of hawkers running away from GD Teams around the markets to jeopardise the safety of pedestrians. I think that the safety of passers-by cannot be safeguarded.
MR. PAO PING-WING (in Cantonese):—Mr. Chairman, on Mr. BERNACCHI'S motion, I have a lot of reservations and I wish to make three points. Firstly, if we pass this motion today, that will mean that this will lead to some misunderstanding by the GD Teams in their operations in future that we do not want them to arrest hawkers. This misunderstanding might lead to confusion in our hawker control strategy and make the GD Teams less effective. The hawkers might further misunderstand that they will be afraid of nothing because the GD Teams will not arrest them. The second point of my reservation is: if we merely disperse them, two situations might arise. First, as our Vice-Chairman has described that in the process of dispersing hawkers, how can the safety of the public be ensured? Second, after we have dispersed them, I am sure it is very easy for the hawkers to concentrate again. In other words, if we merely disperse them and do not have any effective method to prevent them from coming back again, then this will not be effective. The third point I wish to make is: if we endorse or pass this motion today, it will be in conflict with the policies endorsed by the Markets and Street Traders Select Committee. Previously, we have tried very hard to computerise the work of hawker control. In other words, if a hawker has been arrested and convicted, his record will be stored in the computer and then it will help the magistrates on deciding future sentences. If we now merely concentrate on dispersing them rather than arresting them, it will be contrary to what we have been trying to effect better hawker control through conviction and sentencing. I have a lot of reservations on this motion and I tend to support Mr. K. K. FUNG's suggestion that we leave it to the Select Committee to further discuss the issue.
MR. LO KING-MAN (in English):—Mr. Chairman, I am speaking against the motion. If it is the intention of this Council to maintain a policy role, then I think the motion itself is a very bad attempt to try to breathe down the neck of the Department very heavily and put them in a no win situation. Because this motion if like any other motions is intended to lead to a position of resolve, the form that Mr. BERNACCHI puts forward shows a total unresolve if this Council so approves it. I object to the motion.
MR. MA LEE-WO (in Cantonese):—Mr. Chairman, on this motion, I have two points. Mr. BERNACCHI says until there are more GD Teams, they should concentrate on dispersing hawkers rather than arresting. I would like to ask what is meant by 'more'. Secondly, in his speech, it seems that he is more concerned with his own constituency. However, some mention has been made for it to apply on a territory wide basis. I am afraid I cannot agree to make it a
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policy for the whole territory. However, if Mr. BERNACCHI only refers only to his particular district, perhaps we can leave it to the Markets and Street Traders Select Committee or the District Board to further deliberate on the issue. I do not agree to his suggestion of making a policy for the whole territory. It is true that we have inadequate manpower, and if GD Teams in their hawker control have no right to arrest and charge hawkers, I wonder how many hawkers will really take heed of the action taken by the GD Teams. Let me take the example of Po On Road market which is one of the biggest market in Hong Kong. It is a very viable market because illegal hawkers around the Market are subject to constant arrest in addition to dispersal. If we merely disperse the hawkers, I am afraid they will continue to be there. There might have other consequences. If the GD Teams do not have the right to arrest and charge hawkers, it will directly or indirectly encourage more illegal hawking plying around the markets. We all know that according to our policy, when we have a new market, we will try to reorder hawkers who are originally on the street in order to manage them properly. If we allow hawkers to continue to conglomerate outside the markets and the GD Teams have no power to arrest them, we are actually encouraging illegal hawking to hawk on the streets. I am worried that very few people would be willing to trade inside the markets. If the GD Teams can only disperse hawkers and cannot really arrest and charge them, the hawking situation will deteriorate and the GD Teams will not be able to work effectively. Because of these reasons, I object to the motion and I hope that the issue can be further considered by the Council.
MR. JOSEPH Y. S. CHAN (in Cantonese):—Mr. Chairman, I cannot support Mr. BERNACCHI'S motion that it is more effective to disperse hawkers rather than to arrest them. It leads me to think about the Bible. At one time Jesus who was at a temple saw some illegal hawkers hawking outside. He thought it showed a disrespect to the church, so he dispersed the hawkers by way of force. He picked up a rope and slashed at the hawkers forcing them out of the temple which he called as his lord house. Even Jesus had to use force to disperse hawkers in such a human way. For our GD Teams, if they are only allowed to disperse the hawkers, it is inevitable they may have to use force. Since the GD Teams are not as kind as Jesus, and if the GD Teams resort to force thereby leading to confrontation, there may be a lot of fightings when the GD Teams intend to carry out their duties. This would undermine the unrest of our society and create conflict of human relationship. Such situation is unacceptable to the Council's image to control illegal hawkers. Since the GD Teams are not armed and are not disciplined forces, how are they going to disperse hawkers. Are they just going to use their hands and push the hawkers away? It is possible that some illegal hawkers may pick up some sort of weapons to disperse the GD Teams rather than for the GD Teams to disperse them. The situation that GD Teams are running away from the hawkers and not the hawkers running away from the GD Teams is likely to arise. I have heard a story from my friend. When squatter areas were cleared, the officers responsible for the work had to run away from the squatters who were chasing after them with knives. It was
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HONG KONG URBAN COUNCIL
hawkers who were running away from GD Teams, spilled boiling oil around and jeopardised the safety of passers-by. There were suggestions that the GD Teams should be in plainclothes to arrest hawkers without letting them run away. If Mr. BERNACCHI's motion is to be accepted today, that would mean that in future there will again be a lot of hawkers running away from GD Teams around the markets to jeopardise the safety of pedestrians. I think that the safety of passers-by cannot be safeguarded.
MR. PAO PING-WING (in Cantonese):-Mr. Chairman, on Mr. BERNACCHI'S motion, I have a lot of reservations and I wish to make three points. Firstly, if we pass this motion today, that will mean that this will lead to some misunderstanding by the GD Teams in their operations in future that we do not want them to arrest hawkers. This misunderstanding might lead to confusion in our hawker control strategy and make the GD Teams less effective. The hawkers might further misunderstand that they will be afraid of nothing because the GD Teams will not arrest them. The second point of my reservation is: if we merely disperse them, two situations might arise. First, as our Vice-Chairman has described that in the process of dispersing hawkers, how can the safety of the public be ensured? Second, after we have dispersed them, I am sure it is very easy for the hawkers to concentrate again. In other words, if we merely disperse them and do not have any effective method to prevent them from coming back again, then this will not be effective. The third point I wish to make is: if we endorse or pass this motion today, it will be in conflict with the policies endorsed by the Markets and Street Traders Select Committee. Previously, we have tried very hard to computerise the work of hawker control. In other words, if a hawker has been arrested and convicted, his record will be stored in the computer and then it will help the magistrates on deciding future sentences. If we now merely concentrate on dispersing them rather than arresting them, it will be contrary to what we have been trying to effect better hawker control through convinction and sentencing. I have a lot of reservations on this motion and I tend to support Mr. K. K. FUNG's suggestion that we leave it to the Select Committee to further discuss the issue.
MR. LO KING-Man (in English):—Mr. Chairman, I am speaking against the motion. If it is the intention of this Council to maintain a policy role, then I think the motion itself is a very bad attempt to try to breathe down the neck of the Department very heavily and put them in a no win situation. Because this motion if like any other motions is intended to lead to a position of resolve, the form that Mr. BERNACCHI puts forward shows a total unresolve if this Council so approves it. I object to the motion.
MR. MA LEE-WO (in Cantonese):-Mr. Chairman, on this motion, I have two points. Mr. BERNACCHI says until there are more GD Teams, they should concentrate on dispersing hawkers rather than arresting. I would like to ask what is meant by 'more'. Secondly, in his speech, it seems that he is more concerned with his own constituency. However, some mention has been made for it to apply on a territory wide basis. I am afraid I cannot agree to make it a
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policy for the whole territory. However, if Mr. BERNACCHI only refers only to his particular district, perhaps we can leave it to the Markets and Street Traders Select Committee or the District Board to further deliberate on the issue. I do not agree to his suggestion of making a policy for the whole territory. It is true that we have inadequate manpower, and if GD Teams in their hawker control have no right to arrest and charge hawkers, I wonder how many hawkers will really take heed of the action taken by the GD Teams. Let me take the example of Po On Road market which is one of the biggest market in Hong Kong. It is a very viable market because illegal hawkers around the Market are subject to constant arrest in addition to dispersal. If we merely disperse the hawkers, I am afraid they will continue to be there. There might have other consequences. If the GD Teams do not have the right to arrest and charge hawkers, it will directly or indirectly encourage more illegal hawking plying around the markets. We all know that according to our policy, when we have a new market, we will try to reorder hawkers who are originally on the street in order to manage them properly. If we allow hawkers to continue to conglomerate outside the markets and the GD Teams have no power to arrest them, we are actually encouraging illegal hawking to hawk on the streets. I am worried that very few people would be willing to trade inside the markets. If the GD Teams can only disperse hawkers and cannot really arrest and charge them, the hawking situation will deteriorate and the GD Teams will not be able to work effectively. Because of these reasons, I object to the motion and I hope that the issue can be further considered by the Council.
MR. JOSEPH Y. S. CHAN (in Cantonese):-Mr. Chairman, I cannot support Mr. BERNACCHI'S motion that it is more effective to disperse hawkers rather than to arrest them. It leads me to think about the Bible. At one time Jesus who was at a temple saw some illegal hawkers hawking outside. He thought it showed a disrespect to the church, so he dispersed the hawkers by way of force. He picked up a rope and slashed at the hawkers forcing them out of the temple which he called as his lord house. Even Jesus had to use force to disperse hawkers in such a human way. For our GD Teams, if they are only allowed to disperse the hawkers, it is inevitable they may have to use force. Since the GD Teams are not as kind as Jesus, and if the GD Teams resort to force thereby leading to confrontation, there may be a lot of fightings when the GD Teams intend to carry out their duties. This would undermine the unrest of our society and create conflict of human relationship. Such situation is unacceptable to the Council's image to control illegal hawkers. Since the GD Teams are not armed and are not disciplined forces, how are they going to disperse hawkers. Are they just going to use their hands and push the hawkers away? It is possible that some illegal hawkers may pick up some sort of weapons to disperse the GD Teams rather than for the GD Teams to disperse them. The situation that GD Teams are running away from the hawkers and not the hawkers running away from the GD Teams is likely to arise. I have heard a story from my friend. When squatter areas were cleared, the officers responsible for the work had to run away from the squatters who were chasing after them with knives. It was
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