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(3) The requirement for a defendant to prove himself innocent violates the traditional judicial system in Hong Kong.
Whether the police have enough manpower to impose supervision is a question. If they do not have enough manpower, supervision will be in name only.
On the other hand, innocent members of the public will have to put up with lots of interferences.
To impose supervision on a discharged offender is a deprivation of civil rights and will lead to deeper hatred and antagonism in the discharged offender. This can be a hidden cause for future social unrest.
While the objective of the proposal in paragraph 5.47 to provide for persons wishing to dissociate themselves from triad societies to make a declaration of renunciation is correct, it is doubtful whether unilateral renunciation can serve to free a person from triad control. It is important that we find out ways to assist those wishing to turn a new leaf so that they do not have to depend on the triads, and protect them from harassment and intimidation. The authorities concerned should provide adequate counselling, vocational training, and employment service to give confidence to those wishing to go straight to renounce triad affiliation. Otherwise, no one will be willing to do so.
Hong Kong seems to have the tendency to demand that its citizens prove their innocence —
(a) The Lands and Works Branch intends to ask property owners to prove their properties are free of illegal structures.
(b) A person charged by the ICAC has to prove their sources of income.
(c) Now the Court is considering asking a defendant to disprove triad membership. Once this precedent is set, there is no guarantee that the Police will not in future demand that the public prove their innocence, in order to facilitate prosecution.
Our judicial system is based on the principle that we would rather let go of the guilty than run the risk of wronging the innocent. Are we going to change it to the opposite? The reason why 'we would rather let go of the guilty than run the risk of wronging the innocent' is we attach more importance to human rights and life than the law. To do the opposite, i.e., 'wrong the innocent rather than run the risk of freeing the guilty' is placing the law before human life and rights. Is it worthwhile to start such changes for the sake of tackling the triads?
Police supervision
Paragraph 5.34 proposes to prohibit those who have been convicted of triad membership from entering premises of the Royal Hong Kong Jockey Club, gambling or vice establishments, massage parlours, automatic games centres,
HONG KONG URBAN COUNCIL
billiard saloons, premises of martial arts associations, and possession of paging machines for two years after they have served their sentences.
For those young offenders wishing to start a new life, these restrictions stop them from taking to old habits and therefore may serve a purpose. But they are totally useless to those diehard members who, having no respect for the law, will not heed the restrictions. So the Police can impose supervision if they like, but discharged offenders will be frequenting gambling establishments etc. all the same.
Conclusion
The discussion document gives no data to show how serious the triad problem is in Hong Kong, or whether there are triad members among rich businessmen, celebrities, councillors, and persons with honours. We do not know how many of the government officials are triad members controlling triad activities behind the scene. But I believe the Police do have information on these. It seems that the proposals in the discussion document are not aiming at the ringleaders. To catch gangsters without catching the ringleader will not thoroughly eliminate the problem.
If the Police really wish to crash triad societies, they must have the courage to pick out and hit at the ringleaders.
Finally, I would like to propose the following —
(1) Hitting out at the ringleaders.
(2) Imposing heavier punishment.
(3) Re-imposing the deportation system.
(4) Re-imposing the death penalty to deter cold-blooded murderers.
(5) Retaining a judicial system that respects human rights.
(6) Re-organizing the Fight Crime Committee to a Law and Order Committee, with elected, appointed, and official members each taking up one-third of the seats. The Committee will be responsible for supervision and planning to maintain law and order. If the proposals are accepted, the authorities concerned should set up a monitoring body to ensure that the Police do not misuse their powers and to approve prosecutions against triad members so as to protect human rights and prevent framing of the innocent.
(Mr. L. H. KWAN and Dr. Ronald LEUNG left at 3.40 p.m. and 3.55 p.m. respectively.)
MR. LAM CHAK-PIU (in Cantonese) — Mr. Chairman, in fact, what has been said by the Members are all that I want to say, so I just want to mention some points for your consideration. I am in total agreement with what you have said. It not only has an effect on urban services that we are affected by triads in our work,
Page 66 of 201
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Page 66 of 201
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HONG KONG URBAN COUNCIL
(3) The requirement for a defendant to prove himself innocent' violates the
traditional judicial system in Hong Kong.
Whether the police have enough manpower to impose supervision is a question. If they do not have enough manpower, supervision will be in name only.
On the other hand, innocent members of the public will have to put up with lots of interferences.
To impose supervision on a discharged offender is a deprivation of civil rights and will lead to deeper hatred and antagonism in the discharged offender. This can be a hidden cause for future social unrest.
While the objective of the proposal in paragraph 5.47 to provide for persons wishing to dissociate themselves from triad societies to make a declaration of renounciation is correct, it is doubtful whether unilateral renounciation can serve to free a person from triad control. It is important that we find out ways to assist those wishing to turn a new leaf so that they do not have to depend on the triads, and protect them from harassment and intimidation. The authorities concerned should provide adequate counselling, vocational training and employment service to give confidence to those wishing to go straight to renounce triad affiliation. Otherwise no one will be willing to do so.
Hong Kong seems to have the tendency to demand that its citizens prove their innocence-
(a) The Lands and Works Branch intends to ask property owners to prove
their properties are free of illegal structures.
(b) A person charged by the ICAC has to prove this sources of income. (c) Now the Court is considering asking a defendant to disprove triad membership. Once this precedent is set, there is no guarantee that the Police will not in future demand that the public prove their innocence, in order to facilitate prosecution.
Our judicial system is based on the principle that we would rather let go of the guilty than run the risk of wronging the innocent'. Are we going to change it to the opposite? The reason why 'we would rather let go of the guilty than run the risk of wronging the innocent' is we attach more importance to human rights and life than the law. To do the opposite, i.e., 'wrong the innocent rather than run the risk of freeing the guilty' is placing the law before human life and rights. Is it worthwhile to start such changes for the sake of tackling the triads?
Police supervision
Paragraph 5.34 proposes to prohibit those who have been convicted of triad membership from entering premises of the Royal Hong Kong Jockey Club, gambling or vice establishments, massage parlours, automatic games centres,
HONG KONG URBAN COUNCIL
billiard saloons, premises of martial arts associations and possession of paging machines for two years after they have served their sentences.
For those young offenders wishing to start a new life, these restrictions stop them from taking to old habits and therefore may serve a purpose. But they are totally useless to those diehard members who, having no respect for the law, will not heed the restrictions. So the Police can impose supervision if they like, but discharged offenders will be frequenting gambling establishments etc. all the
same.
Conclusion
The discussion document gives no data to show how serious the triad problem is in Hong Kong, or whether there are triad members among rich businessmen, celebrities, councillors and persons with honours. We do not know how many of the government officials are triad members controlling triad activities behind the scene. But I believe the Police do have information on these. It seems that the proposals in the discussion document are not aiming at the ringleaders. To catch gangsters without catching the ringleader will not thoroughly eliminate the problem.
If the Police really wish to crash triad societies, they must have the courage to pick out and hit at the ringleaders.
Finally, I would like to propose the following-
(1) Hitting out at the ringleaders.
(2) Imposing heavier punishment.
(3) Re-imposing the deportation system.
(4) Re-imposing the death penalty to deter cold-blooded murderers. (5) Retaining a judicial system that respects human rights.
(6)
Re-organizing the Fight Crime Committee to a Law and Order Committee, with elected, appointed and official members each taking up one-third of the seats. The Committee will be responsible for supervision and planning to maintain law and order. If the proposals are accepted, the authorities concerned should set up a monitoring body to ensure that the Police do not misuse their powers and to approve prosecutions against triad members so as to protect human rights and prevent framing of the innocent.
(Mr. L. H. KWAN and Dr. Ronald LEUNG left at 3.40 p.m. and 3.55 p.m. respectively.)
MR. LAM CHAK-PIU (in Cantonese)- Mr. Chairman, in fact what has been said by the Members are all that what I want to say, so I just want to mention some points for your consideration. I am in total agreement to what you have said. It not only has effect on urban services that we are affected by triads in our work,
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Private notes are available after approval.